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So a 20D Attribute Template
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: So a 20D Attribute Template Reply with quote

I was just reading the "Tales of the Jedi" companion and found the "freedom fighter" template.

The Attributes listed looks like this

DEX: 4D
PER: 3D+2
KNO: 2D
STR: 3D+2
MEC: 3D+1
TEC: 3D+1

Pips here = 2D total.
4+3+3+3+3+2 = 18

How should we treat this, like a error in the book, or open up for a +18D
Type template.

If we look at the rules fro Species Generation we can see that a 20D Attributes IS mechanically possible.

Seeing the stats listed on some species and how they change from book to book is a little confusing.

Like the Anzat, some scourses give them 14D Attribute (+ all their specials) others give them 13, some even 12........

But back to the Human freedom fighter from the tales of the jedi companion........how to deal with this 20D Template?
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tales of the Jedi had the editorial rigor of a kindergarten.

I wish I could say something good about that book.

19D species include Hapans, Tinnell, Falleen, Sluissi, Togruta, and Arkanians.

20D Species include the Hutts.

22D Species include the Noghri.

The most I allow in a game is 19D. If your GM allows it, go for it. If you are cool with it in your game, go for it.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the editor must have been a powerplayer hehe.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:

20D Species include the Hutts.


TBH, I don't mind the Hutts being above-player-standard.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no issues in allowing 18D+ Species.

19-20-even 22D are all fine as the galaxy is a very diverse place, but as to humans how do a 20D template make sense?

Unless we could argue that it is a human sub-species, rolled (picked) through the generation in alien encounter.

This allows for a 20D species to be rolled
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To ME it was an obvious error..
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
To ME it was an obvious error..



While I DO agree, I still wonder where to make the 2D total deduction.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick solution would be to just eliminate the pips on the attributes.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can improve attributes. It is well within the rules of the game to get your human to 24D attributes, and beyond, though it gets harder after that.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
You can improve attributes. It is well within the rules of the game to get your human to 24D attributes, and beyond, though it gets harder after that.


I know this, however the Template in question is as far as I have found the only one starting with 20D to attributes, though it could be a tradeoff in that it is also ( from the template collection pdf) as I have found the only one starting out with NOT Force Sensitive crossed out, if this is the case this is not a good trade off given you can use CP later to awaken and become force sensitive.

This being said, I never understood why there are jedi templates as any force sensitive non jedi template WILL be better in most aspects, at lest not related to the force, and with the low CP cost of getting it to a total of 1D to a force skill, they are not more than marginally behind if that in the aspects of the force.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
A quick solution would be to just eliminate the pips on the attributes.


I agree. 4d dex, 3d most else except for know. Same as reb spec forces..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One possible way to justify characters with more than 18D in Attributes is to use the Advantage/Disadvantage system from D6 Space to give them off-setting penalties. This can take the form of Story Factors and the like.

Obviously, this would only work for existing species in the form of a ret-con, but at least two of the above-mentioned species aren't really suitable for PCs except in extreme circumstances. I have, on occasion, wondered about playing a Hutt character, though...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
One possible way to justify characters with more than 18D in Attributes is to use the Advantage/Disadvantage system from D6 Space to give them off-setting penalties. This can take the form of Story Factors and the like.

The D6 Space system is built on the formula that 1D in attribute dice equals 4D in skill dice. It's not too hard to come up with a skill dice value for most advantages, disadvantages and special abilities, but I just can't equate attribute dice to skill dice. It seems to me that attributes are worth more than that and it would be too easy to munchkin a character. A starting character is 18D in attributes plus 7D in skills, or 79 creation points which you could use to make a 19D attribute character with 3D in skills. That extra 1D in attribute just raised all the skills under that attribute 1D, so that is clearly a better deal than 4D in skills. Or you could even take a low grade disadvantage and make a 20D attribute character!

Then for Star Wars here we are talking about allowing 19D attribute PCs with 7D skills on top of that? That's even more power game than D6 Space. No, not all sentient Star Wars aliens are evolved equally. We all agree on that. But species and NPCs of those species never had to be balanced. IMO it was always flawed of RAW to have the species base attribute value +6D rule for PC attribute value. It is a leap of logic to apply "not all equal" thing to PCs. The simplest solution is just to say all PCs have 18D attributes, regardless of what the species average dice value is. I know, I'm beating a dead bantha, but this bantha just keeps coming back to life! Cool

CRMcNeill wrote:
I have, on occasion, wondered about playing a Hutt character, though...

That's easy if you remember that the Hutts shown in canon are all older Hutts and imagine that when Hutts are younger adults they are more mobile and smaller. When I get back around to revising my PC species rules I'll post them.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An image of a potential Hutt PC.



Just have him wander around in a giant walker! He's a tougher boss than a 300 year old Jedi Master in SWTOR, so go figure.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
One possible way to justify characters with more than 18D in Attributes is to use the Advantage/Disadvantage system from D6 Space to give them off-setting penalties. This can take the form of Story Factors and the like.

The D6 Space system is built on the formula that 1D in attribute dice equals 4D in skill dice. It's not too hard to come up with a skill dice value for most advantages, disadvantages and special abilities, but I just can't equate attribute dice to skill dice. It seems to me that attributes are worth more than that and it would be too easy to munchkin a character. A starting character is 18D in attributes plus 7D in skills, or 79 creation points which you could use to make a 19D attribute character with 3D in skills. That extra 1D in attribute just raised all the skills under that attribute 1D, so that is clearly a better deal than 4D in skills. Or you could even take a low grade disadvantage and make a 20D attribute character!

Then for Star Wars here we are talking about allowing 19D attribute PCs with 7D skills on top of that? That's even more power game than D6 Space. No, not all sentient Star Wars aliens are evolved equally. We all agree on that. But species and NPCs of those species never had to be balanced. IMO it was always flawed of RAW to have the species base attribute value +6D rule for PC attribute value. It is a leap of logic to apply "not all equal" thing to PCs. The simplest solution is just to say all PCs have 18D attributes, regardless of what the species average dice value is. I know, I'm beating a dead bantha, but this bantha just keeps coming back to life! Cool

CRMcNeill wrote:
I have, on occasion, wondered about playing a Hutt character, though...

That's easy if you remember that the Hutts shown in canon are all older Hutts and imagine that when Hutts are younger adults they are more mobile and smaller. When I get back around to revising my PC species rules I'll post them.


One thing I have done done for the species with more than a 12D base ( 18D with +6D for PCs) is to reduce the skill dice.
I have not seen any species with more than 14D (total 20D) as I can remember, but there may be one with 16

I reduce the skill dice given by 3D per 1D of the alien's attribute D base above 12D to a minimum of 1S Skill dice.

So a Hapan, having 13 (total 19) will get only 4 skill dice to allocate

An anzat with 14D (20D total) I then give only 1D to allocate to skills.

It is not a value by value trade off, but I feel it helps a little bit on balancing out the high attribute dice races
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