The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Allowing Force Skills on the 7D Skill dice.....
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Allowing Force Skills on the 7D Skill dice.....
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Allowing Force Skills on the 7D Skill dice..... Reply with quote

I just looked over many of the attribute scores of many "jedi" black or white
I noticed that most, if not all of the "movie and story" NPCs have 18D attributes

We could argue this is due to training, but then why stop at 18D and not 18+1 oe 20D (up to 24 I think)

Now if we allow for this, we will not see a jedi starting character very overpowered.
He will have reduced D to spend on any non force skill, and thus have sacrified much.
Being born a "weakling" slower, less smart, less strong etc.........makes no sense.

Now lets compare

I spend 18D or pick a non force template....add 7D to skills
I choose to be force sensitive ( pr RAW you can do this)
my next CP will be used towards the force.


I take a template or make one and choose to give 1D to Control, sense and alter....I now have only 4D to allocate to skills.....and even IF I use the force powers to compencate, like the Enhance attribute, I risk failing this...........while someone also f force user, but not born weak, will not fail by default ("ever") on the exact same task at the lower levels.

With higher levels the differences will be less, but the one Awakened later in life will be superior in almost every aspect......including the force , even with upto 2D in each as a difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2400

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say go for it. This is pretty close to my interpretation of how it should be. I would argue, from a game balance/character concept perspective, that a character who started as a Jedi (or other force user) should be better than one who did not, but chooses to become one later.

The solution I see is, 1) as you stated, allow the skill dice to be allocated to force skills for the first D in a skill (instead of using the attribute dice). And 2) possibly give them bonus starting powers (or something) that sets them ahead of the curve with regard to total known powers at any given die value.

So, it could be that for the first D you allocate to a force skill, you get two or three powers known for that skill, instead of just one (life detection, life sense, and danger sense, for example). Make this deal only available at character creation. While learning a new force skill later only allows one power known when the skill is gained (life detection only, for example).

I don't know how closely you want to stick to the RAW otherwise, but I have reduced all force powers to single skill rolls (even if they have prerequisite powers that are based on other skills). Affect mind, for example, has all the same prerequisites, but is an alter-only power. Then, I did away with the "new power every pip" rule, and changed it to a new power every full die rule. This makes force users have to really think about the theme of their character and which powers compliment that concept, and which ones are dead weight with regard to character advancement. It also allows for a party with multiple force users to have very different capabilities, rather than using a force power to stand in where a normal skill would usually be required (using concentration to overcome a low skill in intimidation or what have you).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen some revamps of templates, Young Yedi being one that starts out "weak" attribute wise, but with 1D to all three force skills.
The template also states that the character starts with 9 force powers.

Normally it is used 1 power for the first D, then 1 power/pip.

I would argue that a student of an organized force school, like jedi or even sith (back when) would be allowed 9 powers.
1 learned as they got their first D, the other 2 (pr D) would reflect their training and what they have learned.

This would bring a beginner "jedi" better up to par.

Even if we look at powers like enhance attribute, a mere 1D is not really an edge, nor does it make the caster up to par in the attribute compared to pipped or even 3D and 4D attributes.

However, 9 powers will help, add to this another 1D (total 3/7D skill dice) to each, add another 9 Powers and now the caster is more up to par, now the powers are "reasonably" usable without "gambling" on wild dice.

I am considering house ruling that for the cost of your starting CP, you can start with 1D to ONE of the three force skills, and ONE power.
Then allocate the 6D to attributes normally, then the 7D to attributes.

I would argue allowing the above is no more overpowering than the piloting bonuses of the corellians, or the kiffar abilities ( who are human)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2400

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind, too, that no matter how many, or which powers a starting character has, he still only has 1D to start (unless you allow using the skill dice to push them higher). Having a force skill at 1D is just as good as not having the force skill, basically. You've paid a price, but the benefit is not realized until many, many more character points are spent to bring the skill into a usable range (at a bare minimum, 3D, with 4D being when things start to come into a reliable, but not overpowering, level).

I feel as though a newly minted Jedi Knight should have no less than 3D in any single force skill (as a bare minimum... most would probably have around 4D in their lowest force skill), but have a total of ~12D to 13D between the three force skills (minimum).

I feel that crossing the threshold from Knight to Master would not be based on a number of dice, but rather the feats achieved during the Knight's career, which may require greater mastery of certain or all three force skills. I feel that a typical Jedi master would have a total of 20D or more between the three skills, and most would have their lowest skill raised to at least 6D by the time they demonstrate master-level competency (though this could vary from era to era and from one individual to another, of course).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Keep in mind, too, that no matter how many, or which powers a starting character has, he still only has 1D to start (unless you allow using the skill dice to push them higher). Having a force skill at 1D is just as good as not having the force skill, basically. You've paid a price, but the benefit is not realized until many, many more character points are spent to bring the skill into a usable range (at a bare minimum, 3D, with 4D being when things start to come into a reliable, but not overpowering, level).

I feel as though a newly minted Jedi Knight should have no less than 3D in any single force skill (as a bare minimum... most would probably have around 4D in their lowest force skill), but have a total of ~12D to 13D between the three force skills (minimum).

I feel that crossing the threshold from Knight to Master would not be based on a number of dice, but rather the feats achieved during the Knight's career, which may require greater mastery of certain or all three force skills. I feel that a typical Jedi master would have a total of 20D or more between the three skills, and most would have their lowest skill raised to at least 6D by the time they demonstrate master-level competency (though this could vary from era to era and from one individual to another, of course).



I was considering allowing a max 2D (to all 3 skills) as a start, so to "force" some skill D to be placed else where

Buy yes even with all 3 skills at 1D and 9 Powers it is still not much ( if anything) close to an edge , that comes at minimum 2D in force skills and up, but still there it will be less than a "normal" higher attribute


I am even considering counting the force SKILLS on the 7D skills dice, and allow for 18D attributes. (and for templates allow to "boost" attributes to 18D+force skills)
After all they are called force SKILLS...and thus should be connected to skill Dice and not attribute.....but that is another matter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2400

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I agree. The force initial force dice should come out of the 7D, not the 18D.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yes. I agree. The force initial force dice should come out of the 7D, not the 18D.


Indeed, and this DOES provide a reasonable trade off for the force and the power it has.

After all you will have 4D left to allocate after 1D to each force skill
Even less if you boost the force.......and this makes sense.
here is where the trade off is.........7D to skills ( not counting the 3 Force skills)
vs 6-5-4-3-2-1D ddpending on the level of force aptitude chosen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Captain
Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 630

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan, Yoda, and the Emperor have 18D. Luke has 17D+1. Vader has 20D attributes.

However, every single template (except for the Tales of the Jedi) follow the rules for force user creation. The Tales of the Jedi take too many attributes away, using attribute dice to increase force skills, when skill dice should be used for that. But that sourcebook makes lots and lots of mistakes.

Mamatried, it's your game. Give it a try. In my experience, force users outshine other characters quickly enough. But all my Jedi players have learned the ways of the force after the game has started. Once they hit 3D in a Force Skill they become quite powerful.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is easy to become too powerful too quickly, 3D to force skills IS an edge.
I personally feel the need to actually require some form of actual training, be it a teacher or even a holocron in order to learn the various force powers, it makes no sense that they just "pop up".

Now 1 power pr D I still see as plausible as this would indicate a "realistic" aspect of growing thorough the force and by that learning things on your own.

However allowing the force skills on the 7D, will go for anyone force sensitive, though any non jedi(or non "school") would reasonably start with less powers learned, maybe even the RAW of 1 power for the first 1D to the skill.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Argentsaber
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 07 Oct 2017
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run a modified 1st ed game, in which I use the second ed attribute advancement rules in a limited fashion.. a character may purchase attributes which replace those lost to force skills (I also include a similar batch of non-force skills like "slicer") but not above the total of 18D. I also use the same rules to allow cybernetic enhancements to raise attributes.. the CP cost is simulating the learning curve of "getting used to" the enhancements.
_________________
"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest."
G'Kar, Survivors (Babylon 5)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0