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Should Hutts Always Be NPCs?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Can you imagine a game with PC Hutts?

I guess you'd need a special spacecraft.

And, what about wealth? Wouldn't the Hutt be much more wealthy than a typical GM likes his PCs to be? It loses the "push" a GM can use when the PCs are broke. Wealthy PCs can buy their way out of trouble and hire others to do the dirty work.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Can you imagine a game with PC Hutts?

I guess you'd need a special spacecraft.

And, what about wealth? Wouldn't the Hutt be much more wealthy than a typical GM likes his PCs to be? It loses the "push" a GM can use when the PCs are broke. Wealthy PCs can buy their way out of trouble and hire others to do the dirty work.

Thoughts?

The Hutts we've seen in the films were older and fatter. What about younger Hutts who are more physically fit? They can fit on normal starships but might need a special chair. I love Hutts so came up with solutions to the problems you mentioned made them an allowable PC species.

Whill wrote:
I'm with you guys on not wanting large-sized PCs, but I love Hutts so much that I allow them as PCs. However Hutt PCs in my game are in a younger phase of their life (age 180-200) when they typically progress to about 18D in attributes but still before they grow so large like Gardulla and Jabba (who was about 600 years old in the classic era). So imagine something roughly the body shape and size of halfway in between the CG Jabba from ANH and Sluissi.

In my SWU, Hutts around the age of 130 are traditionally sent out into the galaxy by their families to go out on their own for 55-80 years and gain life experience and contacts that will later aid them in running the family businesses someday. It's a rite of passage of sorts. Those Hutts who are particularly inept and dependent on their family who never achieve success and sometimes even go home early, usually stay at the bottom of pecking order for the rest of their lives (not all Hutts can be powerful crime lords) but these Hutts are not ones that become PCs. Sometimes even the successful young Hutts aren't completely on their own and may retain secret contact with their families or even develop secret alliances with rival Hutt families. Young Hutts may become smugglers to someday better manage smuggling rings. They become gang bangers, bank robbers, mercenaries, bounty hunters, pirates, gamblers or even legitimate business operators. A minority of these young Hutts may even pursue some atypical vocations like becoming an artist or farmer. They may work in multiple occupations over the years of this time period. The really successful ones may even develop their own largely independent business operations and not even go back to their families.

During this time of little to no contact with their Hutt families, a minority of these young Hutts may even develop a sense of morality and become outright heroic, fighting for just causes. By age 200-210, almost all of these Hutts "get over" these altruistic tendencies so when they return to their families they begin to become the stereotypical egotistical megalomaniacs that Hutts normally are. When older Hutts learn of these "good" Hutt adventures they usually just shake their heads and laugh, confident that it is just a youthful phase the Hutts have to "get out of their system" before becoming a proper Hutt.

I think my version makes Hutts even more interesting. Even the rare good young Hutt now is almost predestined to turn evil someday and stay that way. For my version of Hutts, I wanted to honor the spirit of the fluff about Hutts but still allow some independent and maybe even good Hutts for the sake of being PCs. However I never liked WEG's take on Hutts being hermaphroditic because Jabba in part represented sexual lust so much that there was even a veiled threat of interspecies rape in RotJ. And I liked the asexual Hutts even less after seeing that Jabba have a girlfriend in TPM. In the new canon they have actually updated Hutts to be sexual species with male and female genders and I have also gone in that direction with my Hutts too. But most of the rest of entry on Hutts in GG 4 is honored, at least for older Hutts.

Regardless of what a young Hutt does out in the galaxy and their level of accomplishment, those that survive and aren't incarcerated usually just feel when it is time to return home between the ages of 185-210. Then their families will listen to the young Hutts recount their adventures and review their income tax documents and business portfolios to decide how to best place the young Hutt within the family businesses. A young Hutt PC may return home at the end of a campaign.

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Can you imagine a game with PC Hutts?

I guess you'd need a special spacecraft.

And, what about wealth? Wouldn't the Hutt be much more wealthy than a typical GM likes his PCs to be? It loses the "push" a GM can use when the PCs are broke. Wealthy PCs can buy their way out of trouble and hire others to do the dirty work.

Thoughts?


Wealth is a double edged sword, it also makes you a target
if alien from the empire in particular
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Can you imagine a game with PC Hutts?

I guess you'd need a special spacecraft.

And, what about wealth? Wouldn't the Hutt be much more wealthy than a typical GM likes his PCs to be? It loses the "push" a GM can use when the PCs are broke. Wealthy PCs can buy their way out of trouble and hire others to do the dirty work.

Thoughts?


Wealth is a double edged sword, it also makes you a target
if alien from the empire in particular


True, but it's like running a game where the PCs are nobility (Leia was a noble without a kingdom) or heads of mighty corporations, with lots of troops at their command.

Players are problem solvers, and if you're a King, let's say, you're not going to dirty your own hands with the theif that just stole from the treasury. You're going to send your Security Force after him.

I'm not saying that a game can't be done on that level. I'm just saying that it presents a challenge for the GM. And, many times, that challenge is met by taking away the power and wealth, like destroying Alderaan.

The Empire Strikes Back would not have been as exciting if Leia had taken Luke and Han back to Alderaan and heard about the battle on Hoth second hand.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Can you imagine a game with PC Hutts?

I guess you'd need a special spacecraft.

And, what about wealth? Wouldn't the Hutt be much more wealthy than a typical GM likes his PCs to be? It loses the "push" a GM can use when the PCs are broke. Wealthy PCs can buy their way out of trouble and hire others to do the dirty work.

Thoughts?


Wealth is a double edged sword, it also makes you a target
if alien from the empire in particular




True, but it's like running a game where the PCs are nobility (Leia was a noble without a kingdom) or heads of mighty corporations, with lots of troops at their command.

Players are problem solvers, and if you're a King, let's say, you're not going to dirty your own hands with the theif that just stole from the treasury. You're going to send your Security Force after him.

I'm not saying that a game can't be done on that level. I'm just saying that it presents a challenge for the GM. And, many times, that challenge is met by taking away the power and wealth, like destroying Alderaan.

The Empire Strikes Back would not have been as exciting if Leia had taken Luke and Han back to Alderaan and heard about the battle on Hoth second hand.




I see this can be a massive GM challenge indeed.

I would possibly consider running something like that, but it would be the PC group working their way to the top, one tiny step at the time.

Another thing is you look at this large scale.

Imperial officers, they have wast rescourses until 5ABY and jakku, after that they most likly find mutiny in the ranks
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't particularly care what "advantages" the PCs have. It's the GM's duty and purview to find ways to challenge the players.

A player with 10D in computer programming/repair who never encounters a scenario wherein slicing can be a viable solution is effectively neutered.

A player with a billion credits in liquid assets who is cut off from his funds has the same problem.

As was mentioned before, the Hutts are not a benevolent group of benefactors. And there are lots of people/organizations whom they may have crossed. Look what happened to Jabba when he crossed a poor, local farm boy, after all. All that, despite resisting Luke's mind trick, and having the best security in the system (and possibly sector).

Lastly, CPs are kinda important. A character who doesn't adventure isn't going to earn many CPs (if any at all... or FPs for that matter), and will quickly fall behind any other players (or employees) who routinely "get their hands dirty."
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is lots of examples of using nobles and the wealthy in adventure scenarios: Elric, King Arthur, Earl Dumarest, Dune.

It can definitely be done. But I think it's more of a challenge for campaigns than it is for single adventures. And, many times, the wealth and power are somehow taken away from the rich and powerful. Elric leaves Melnibone to adventure. Dumarest goes on a quest. Paul of Dune loses his family and must go into hiding.

You can also focus on court intrigue, like Game of Thrones, but that takes a talented GM and can focus a lot on inter-personal tasks and roleplaying, without action, which can get boring for players if the GM is not up to the challenge.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. The group needs to create a game that is appropriate for the play style most readily embraced by everyone.

I had a GM who gave out loot rewards a lot, except to me, because I tend to play characters with little use for material riches. Occasionally, I would get extra CPs, but other times, I just didn't get anything. In SW, this is much more doable than in D&D, where "power potential" is directly tied to how much wealth a character can flex (i.e. the cost of magic items).
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
They can fit on normal starships but might need a special chair.


Would a Hutt use a chair? I always assumed that if a Hutt was piloting a spacecraft it would likely have the chairs removed because Hutts are always sitting, from a certain point of view.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Jerrod Owex wrote:
Whill wrote:
They can fit on normal starships but might need a special chair.


Would a Hutt use a chair? I always assumed that if a Hutt was piloting a spacecraft it would likely have the chairs removed because Hutts are always sitting, from a certain point of view.


I don't think a Hutt would pilot a ship. Even a young Hutt. They're too arrogant.

It would be a status symbol among the Hutts, even the young ones, to have retainers. Hutts would probably strive to find ways to get people to work for them. They'd have pilots.

A Hutt's strength (having not read the D6 write up on them in a long, long time, but from what I know of Hutts in the movies and novels and comics) is his power to influence people, either through manipulation or intimidation.

I think a Hutt would make a good spy master.

But, Hutts, as lazy as they are, are very ambitious. They're not happy unless they are at the top. They always want more.

Which is why I could see Hutts being hard to use as player characters. The player would have to find enjoyment in not doing himself, but manipulating others to do so.

Maybe if a Hutt character were a secondary PC? Where the player also played the Hutt's right hand man who did the dirty work?

That would probably be the way to play them.

Like Droids, I don't think I'd recommend them to be played as a single PC. But if the GM would allow a character and a droid, or a henchman and a Hutt, then that could be a lot of fun.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I make it a point to try work with whatever a player wants to do, unless I know without a doubt they are trying to do something just to break the game, to put it politely.

Sometimes this creates a bit more work on the GMs part to have the best game possible, but that is one of my favorite parts of being a GM, and more often than not the work is not as hard as it may sound. I had a player who wanted to play a Noghri and they didn't work with the story and were a bit stronger than your average race so I had to do a bit of research and created stats for the Gengh-Nogri subspecies which allowed the player to technically still be the race he wanted while making it more balanced with what the others were going to be playing.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are excellent points Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, but let's speak hypothetically then. Plus not all Hutts are going to be noble/important figures, some of them are going to have gotten in too deep and have to do the dirty work that they may or may not feel is beneath them!
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took this opportunity to read up on Hutts in GG4. Some interesting tid-bits...

-- Hutts are hermaphrodites. They carry young in a pouch like a marsupial.

-- Baby Hutts will remain in that pouch for 50 years! Until they're about a meter long and weigh about 70 kgs. They have the intellectual capacity of a 10 year old at this point.

-- Hutts live to be 1,000 years old, or more. (This could help them amass wealth and power).

-- At around 130 years, they have the mental capacity of an average Human. At this point, they average about 500 kgs.

-- Jabba The Hutt, in RotJ, was probably 600 years old, weighing about 1,000 kgs.

-- They are severely self-centered and believe themselves to be destined to god-hood.

-- One of their biggest strengths is the ability to manipulate others to do their bidding.

-- Family is important to Hutts. Most will only have one offspring. And, much of a Hutts wealth is passed to him from his ancestor (which means that most Hutts should beging the game wealthy!)

-- Hutts are not manufacturers. They are not creators. They get their technology from other beings. They are masters at brokering. They match those who need goods with those who have goods to sell, and the Hutts take a profit from being the middleman (middleHutt).

-- Hutts do not leave Nal Hutta without slaves, attendants, employees and retainers.

-- Hutts do not travel without reason.

-- Hutts are completely immoral. They are evil, cruel, and manipulative.

-- Due to a Hutt's physical limitations (some have DEX 0D+1!), they must convince others to do their bidding.




So, what would it be like to play a Hutt PC?

You could figure that a Hutt sees a profit motive in helping the Rebellion. So, that gets him with the rest of the group.

But, the GM is going to have to deal with the Hutt's wealth, that was bestowed upon him at birth. Hutts won't have too much trouble getting on an off a ship, but the player playing the Hutt will never really do anything on the ship. A pilot's chair, a weapon turret, or a bridge station will have to be specially designed to accommodate a Hutt.

And, forget about starfighters. There's no market selling them to Hutts, so any starfighter would have to be custom built.

Any PC adult Hutt would be at least 130 years old, rich by his family (thus, have businesses and such), a minimum of 3 meters long and weigh a 500 kgs or more.

Plus, a PC Hutt player would have to be given extra characters or access to NPC henchmen, retainers, slaves, employees, body guards, and the like.

If the Hutt does go anywhere with the other PCs, their movement will be restricted (as a Hutt's Move is in the 0-4 range), unless he's got a floater or some other movement aid.



Playing a Hutt Correctly!

On top of all of this, a player playing a Hutt will end up not be well liked by the rest of the party if the player is playing the Hutt correctly.

The Hutt will always try to gain more of the spoils, because he deserves it. He's a Hutt--almost a god.

The Hutt will look at the other PCs as lesser beings. He will also try to manipulate the PC crew to act as he directs.

And, a good player playing a Hutt will probably demand a throne room be installed on the PC ship, from which the Hutt will most likely never move.

Most of the action will happen by the player playing the Hutt's henchmen and such, doing the Hutt's bidding.




I don think that having a PC Hutt in a game will be a real challenge for the GM, the player playing the Hutt, and even the other players.

But...in the hands of the right group...it might be real fun.

It looks like, though, a Hutt PC will dominate the the "story", so you'll have a game centered around on player instead of all of them equally.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs? Reply with quote

Thanks for the bullet points. GG4 is a great starting point, but some of that has been retconned by later EU, and of course canon has changed some things too (For one, Hutts are not hermaphrodites in canon). I feel it is best to take all the sources into account to form your view of Hutts as possible PCs.

Whill wrote:
The Hutts we've seen in the films were older and fatter. What about younger Hutts who are more physically fit? They can fit on normal starships but might need a special chair. I love Hutts so came up with solutions to the problems you mentioned made them an allowable PC species...
Jerrod Owex wrote:
Whill wrote:
They can fit on normal starships but might need a special chair.

Would a Hutt use a chair? I always assumed that if a Hutt was piloting a spacecraft it would likely have the chairs removed because Hutts are always sitting, from a certain point of view.

You can't just remove a single sentence from the context of the rest of the post and ask a question which is answered by the rest of my post.

I said they might need a special chair. That means not a normal chair. It seems that everyone is basing their view of Hutts on 600 year-old crime lords. Hutts aren't always as big as Jabba. They have to start life smaller and grow to that point. By ANH Jabba wouldn't use a chair to pilot anything. But as my previous post states, I envisioned a stage of life, early adulthood (130-200), in which Hutts are smaller than ANH Jabba, like bulkier Sluissi. To be good PCs, they wouldn't have so much mass to just support the top of their bodies. To be more mobile, they would have to have a lot less mass. But maybe they still wouldn't need a special chair. Do Sluissi need special chairs? Or do they let their tail-end come forward like legs in a chair?

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I don't think a Hutt would pilot a ship. Even a young Hutt. They're too arrogant.

It would be a status symbol among the Hutts, even the young ones, to have retainers. Hutts would probably strive to find ways to get people to work for them. They'd have pilots.

A Hutt's strength (having not read the D6 write up on them in a long, long time, but from what I know of Hutts in the movies and novels and comics) is his power to influence people, either through manipulation or intimidation.

I think a Hutt would make a good spy master.

But, Hutts, as lazy as they are, are very ambitious. They're not happy unless they are at the top. They always want more.

Which is why I could see Hutts being hard to use as player characters. The player would have to find enjoyment in not doing himself, but manipulating others to do so.

Maybe if a Hutt character were a secondary PC? Where the player also played the Hutt's right hand man who did the dirty work?

That would probably be the way to play them.

Like Droids, I don't think I'd recommend them to be played as a single PC. But if the GM would allow a character and a droid, or a henchman and a Hutt, then that could be a lot of fun.

I have a hard time with the concept of an entire species of Jabbas. The way I see it, not all Hutts can be crime lords. Most aren't. Some have to serve more minor functions of Hutt societies. I also see a competition of sorts among younger Hutts to see who has what it takes to rise to the top. Hutts are long-lived, and the early adulthood phase of life I described where Hutts are sent out on their own to gain experience and contacts addresses all of the problems brought up with Hutts being PCs. They are cut-off from any family wealth because they have to learn how to make it on their own to prove their worth in operating clan enterprises later in life. What better way is there for a Hutt to learn the ins and outs of the smuggling business but to take jobs in different aspects of it, including being a freighter captain which needs to know about to pilot ships? They aren't quite full blown evil meglomaniacs yet and have no choice but to cooperate with others at this stage. But most of them are still out for number one and trying to make a profit. A small percentage of these young Hutts out in the galaxy even go through an altruistic stage where they may actually want to be heroic, which allows for players to play to play Hutts in a heroic campaign. It's just a phase they go through and have to get out of their system before returning to their clan.

Sutehp wrote:
That's a plausible explanation for why a Hutt could become part of a PC troupe, Whill. Hutts are notorious for being genetically/racially inclined to think only of themselves, but having an altruistic youthful phase seems at least possible. I like it.
Error wrote:
I like your take on Hutts as PC's Whill. And the mythology behind it all. An excuse to be a good Hutt PC would to be in legitimate business. Maybe you're a tramp freighter owner/operator and you make your dough hauling plasmaberries...

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Re: Should Hutts Always Be NPCs?

If I have a player that wants to play a Hutt PC, then no, Hutts shouldn't only be NPCs.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cause of their wealth, retainers/henchmen etc, i've never seen a dm or as a dm allowed, someone to play a hutt as a pc.. BUT they make for great foils to parties as an npc.
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