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Blind Hyperspace Jumps
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paradoxically, wouldn't slower hyperdrives be more useful for this? Your margins of error are much, much better if you use a x10 drive instead of x1 drive - if you have a margin of 2 seconds at x1, you have a margin of 20 seconds at x10, and that allows your precision to be that much better.

So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Paradoxically, wouldn't slower hyperdrives be more useful for this? Your margins of error are much, much better if you use a x10 drive instead of x1 drive - if you have a margin of 2 seconds at x1, you have a margin of 20 seconds at x10, and that allows your precision to be that much better.

So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...



Well most backups are in the 8 range is super good and the 10-12 range normally so maybe that is part of the reason why.


However this time can be how long the computer brain takes to work, the faster the better, so it may not be about the actual strength of it
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.

The nav computer might possibly give a bonus to the Astrogation roll. And sure, the Astrogation roll can have its Difficulty increased in order to plot a more efficient route.

This, however, does not change the speed of the hyperdrive.

From the Canon section on hyperdrives from Wookieepedia:

"Hyperdrives were rated by "class"; the lower the class, the faster the engine. With its Class One hyperdrive, the Carrion Spike was the fastest ship in the Imperial Navy, while top-of-the-line battlecruisers such as the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer featured Class 2 hyperdrives. The T-14 hyperdrive generator equipped on J-type 327 Nubian starships was rated Class 1.8. Some exceptional ships, like Nakari Kelen's Desert Jewel or Han Solo's Millennium Falcon, had exceptionally fast hyperdrives—Class 0.8 and 0.5 respectively."

The phrase, "the lower the class, the faster the engine" is quite unequivocal and does not support the idea that a greater computational capacity is what drives a faster hyperdrive as compared to a slower one.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
No.

The nav computer might possibly give a bonus to the Astrogation roll. And sure, the Astrogation roll can have its Difficulty increased in order to plot a more efficient route.

This, however, does not change the speed of the hyperdrive.

From the Canon section on hyperdrives from Wookieepedia:

"Hyperdrives were rated by "class"; the lower the class, the faster the engine. With its Class One hyperdrive, the Carrion Spike was the fastest ship in the Imperial Navy, while top-of-the-line battlecruisers such as the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer featured Class 2 hyperdrives. The T-14 hyperdrive generator equipped on J-type 327 Nubian starships was rated Class 1.8. Some exceptional ships, like Nakari Kelen's Desert Jewel or Han Solo's Millennium Falcon, had exceptionally fast hyperdrives—Class 0.8 and 0.5 respectively."

The phrase, "the lower the class, the faster the engine" is quite unequivocal and does not support the idea that a greater computational capacity is what drives a faster hyperdrive as compared to a slower one.



what I meant is that a better hyperdrive, a faster one, has a faster transfer of navigation coordinates.

If you have a top nav computer and a low class hyperdive you will always run slow, even helped by your astrogation check.
The hyperdrive negines them selves have less poweroutput, and most likely as with electronics and computer system, making it slower regardless.

A faster drive maeks the need for the check less,

in this interdictor case, it is to pull out, this neeeds power, once you have pulled free you now need to astrogate a jump
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
what I meant is that a better hyperdrive, a faster one, has a faster transfer of navigation coordinates.

If you have a top nav computer and a low class hyperdive you will always run slow, even helped by your astrogation check.
The hyperdrive negines them selves have less poweroutput, and most likely as with electronics and computer system, making it slower regardless.

This is speculation, and not backed up by any of the RAW for hyperspace travel. Multipliers are only part of the hyperdrive, not the navcomputer. I'm okay with an advanced navcomputer that has an Astrogation Difficulty modifier (let's say -10) combined with a modifier that increases Difficulty in trade for reducing route calculation time, but hyperdrive multipliers are not and never have been part of the data transfer between the navcomputer and the drive.

Quote:
A faster drive maeks the need for the check less,

What does this mean?

Quote:
in this interdictor case, it is to pull out, this neeeds power, once you have pulled free you now need to astrogate a jump

An Interdictor's ability to pull a ship out of hyperspace has nothing to do with overpowering the drive. It is entirely about tricking the ship's drive into dropping into realspace, and keeping it there. Evading an Interdictor's gravity well projectors is entirely about either getting outside the range of its gravity wells, or rolling high enough on Astrogation to plot a course away from inside the well (which is insanely difficult; check Wanted by Cracken for the numbers, the Diff numbers are in the +30 and +40 range).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Paradoxically, wouldn't slower hyperdrives be more useful for this? Your margins of error are much, much better if you use a x10 drive instead of x1 drive - if you have a margin of 2 seconds at x1, you have a margin of 20 seconds at x10, and that allows your precision to be that much better.

So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...

I mentioned something to that effect here. A ship traveling at a slower velocity for the same amount of time as a faster ship is going to cover much less distance, and thus be much less likely to collide with something. The flipside is that it would likely also be easier to track. What form this would take from a rules standpoint, I'm not sure.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Paradoxically, wouldn't slower hyperdrives be more useful for this? Your margins of error are much, much better if you use a x10 drive instead of x1 drive - if you have a margin of 2 seconds at x1, you have a margin of 20 seconds at x10, and that allows your precision to be that much better.

So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...


Maybe blind jumps could get limited to being usable by back ups??
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...

That's a very intriguing idea. Having starfighters equipped with hyperdrives in the x10 range or greater would make them heavily dependent on transport by carriers, yet still have the stand-off strike capability that carrier aircraft made so useful. Obviously, the rules for the classic era are pretty well set, but something like this could be used pre-Clone Wars.

Plus, if the carrier is deployed somewhere within a few lightyears, it would still be able to exercise some real-time control over the strike group (possibly with a Comm-Scan Control & Relay Platform, ala the SWU equivalent of an E-2 Hawkeye).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
No.

The nav computer might possibly give a bonus to the Astrogation roll. And sure, the Astrogation roll can have its Difficulty increased in order to plot a more efficient route.

This, however, does not change the speed of the hyperdrive.

From the Canon section on hyperdrives from Wookieepedia:

"Hyperdrives were rated by "class"; the lower the class, the faster the engine. With its Class One hyperdrive, the Carrion Spike was the fastest ship in the Imperial Navy, while top-of-the-line battlecruisers such as the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer featured Class 2 hyperdrives. The T-14 hyperdrive generator equipped on J-type 327 Nubian starships was rated Class 1.8. Some exceptional ships, like Nakari Kelen's Desert Jewel or Han Solo's Millennium Falcon, had exceptionally fast hyperdrives—Class 0.8 and 0.5 respectively."

The phrase, "the lower the class, the faster the engine" is quite unequivocal and does not support the idea that a greater computational capacity is what drives a faster hyperdrive as compared to a slower one.



No not spped of the hyperdrive, but the speed of "data traffic" between the nav computer and the hyperdrive.
Where a higher power hyperdive have faster and more effective data transfer
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Zarn wrote:
So in that sense, if you have access to heaps of low-powered hyperdrives, you might actually have outsystem carriers that drop off starfighters which then jump en-masse insystem...

That's a very intriguing idea. Having starfighters equipped with hyperdrives in the x10 range or greater would make them heavily dependent on transport by carriers, yet still have the stand-off strike capability that carrier aircraft made so useful. Obviously, the rules for the classic era are pretty well set, but something like this could be used pre-Clone Wars.

Plus, if the carrier is deployed somewhere within a few lightyears, it would still be able to exercise some real-time control over the strike group (possibly with a Comm-Scan Control & Relay Platform, ala the SWU equivalent of an E-2 Hawkeye).


Nice idea.
Well the fighters could be carried by a carrier for efficiency, but they if rebel hve their own hyperdrives to for the return.


this then becomes the carrier dropping fighters while still in hyperspace ( like the shuttle with finn and rose), then once the fighters have done the job, they jump home or to a pickup point
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Argentsaber
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I never SAID it changed the navigation! What I said is that, because of the way WEG structured the rules for Astrogation and Interdictors, jumping into hyperspace too close to a gravity well could cause the ship to go off course. The navcomputer would not be affected in any way, and would still be following the course originally programmed into it. However, because it is essentially flying blind, with only inertial guidance to keep it on course, it has no way of recognizing that a tiny variation made in its initial heading - caused by being too close to a strong gravity well in hyperspace - caused the ship to go off course.

The only way around this, per the RAW, is for a sufficiently skilled Astrogator to roll high enough to beat the increased Astrogation Difficulty caused by being too close to a gravity well.

However, also per the RAW, the ship only goes off course if it fails its Astrogation roll by 10 or less. If it fails by more than 10, it doesn’t jump at all. What I’m talking about is the 10 point window that is the grey area between a successful jump and a failed jump that doesn’t go anywhere. Within that grey area, a ship can still jump to hyperspace, but will almost certainly get thrown off course or collide with something. Something has to cause that, and gravity causing jumps to go slightly off course during the first nanoseconds of the jump is the most logical candidate.

And it’s not sufficient to quote Wookieepedia’s article on Interdictors without quoting why gravity wells do what they do. Gravity wells have always been a brute force approach to tricking a ship’s automated safety systems into dropping out of hyperspace, no matter how Rebels chose to represent it.


Given the basic rule for a jump to fail, maybe a good mechanic would be to assign the gravity well a die code to add to astrogation difficulty? I'm not sure if this should be based on the operator's die code or similar to a weapon damage.. but raising the difficulty substantially might easily explain both most ships being prevented from jumping as well as how very good astrogators are capable of escaping, albiet with a much higher likelihood of mishap.. This could also allow the "hyperdrive cutout bypass" to basically function as juryrigged die code to increase astrogation while within a gravity well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is sort of already covered in Wanted by Cracken, where Astrogation Difficulty is increased by proximity to the gravity well. Per the WEG rules, jumps were impossible once you reached a certain point, but TFA kinda threw that out the window. In an attempt to compensate, I changed the "cannot jump" result to +50 Difficulty, so that Han jumping the Falcon into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base was possible, but also extremely difficult.

And yes, the existing rules are for making the jump to hyperspace, but it would also make sense that the nav computer would potentially reject a course routing that would end too far inside a planet's gravity well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm giving this a bump because I'm considering a change to the rule I posted here.

Specifically, in the Jump section, I went with an All-or-Nothing Approach, with the characters either surviving unharmed or being killed instantly. I re-read this pursuant to something else, and came up with an alternate idea.
    -When attempting a Blind Jump, roll 2D.

    -On a '2' (double 1's), the ship hits an obstacle and is destroyed. All characters are killed.

    -On a '3', the ship suffers the "Collision, Heavy Damage" result from the Astrogation Mishap Table.

    -On a '4', the ship suffers the "Close Call" result from the Astrogation Mishap Table. Roll once on the Heavy Damage Table.

    -A character may expend a Force Point and move the result up one level (i.e. from Destroyed to Collision, or from Collision to Close Call, etc). However, this is not considered Heroic, and the FP is not earned back.

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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, then a roll of 5 or better on 2D and everyone is fine?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
So, then a roll of 5 or better on 2D and everyone is fine?

Yes. Per the original posted rule, any result of 10 or less would have everyone fine, as well, but 11 or 12 would result in a TPK. I first thought of changing the 11-12 result to 2-3 (to preserve the premise that rolling high is a good thing), and then thought it might be more fun for gameplay to throw in a couple intermediate results.
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