The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Overcoming Scale
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Overcoming Scale
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
shootingwomprats
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 1832
Location: Online

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Overcoming Scale Reply with quote

I have been kicking around the idea of overcoming scale by using a combined action and wanted to know what others thought of this.

Overcoming Scale
When using combined actions, for every three extra actions, one level of scale can be overcome. This gives no additional damage or benefit. Additional extra actions can be "spent" normally for additional damage, etc.

Example: Four Y-wings are attacking an Imperial-I Star Destroyer. The commander makes his command roll and can add in his additional three pilots. He decides to spend these actions to upgrade the ion torpedoes from starship scale to capital ship scale damage.

This does bring up the question if starfighter's can carry capital ship killing ion torpedoes. My thoughts would be yes, as we already have planes that carry ship-killing missiles.

What do the rest of you think?
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2409

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume each ship must expend a torpedo?
How many attack rolls are made?

You may want to limit the maximum damage that can occur when using this (such as destruction of a specific system, rather than outright destroying the entire capitol ship with a single volley).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WillTasker
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 25 Jan 2017
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Overcoming Scale Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Example: Four Y-wings are attacking an Imperial-I Star Destroyer. The commander makes his command roll and can add in his additional three pilots. He decides to spend these actions to upgrade the ion torpedoes from starship scale to capital ship scale damage.


I think you're onto something here but it requires more fleshing out. Namely, there should be penalties - something like -2D for the commander (skill check plus the act of combining the units into one force) and -1D for the other pilots (as they're acting as a unit). Obviously in this case, if you're counting munitions like we use to on occasion, you'd have to mark that down on the ships.

So maybe a little like the Heir To The Empire Force power, where C'Boath controls the TIE fighters, I guess? (My memory on that rule is fuzzy, someone jump in with clarification)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thedemonapostle
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 232
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would say that the combined attacks would act more like fire linking weapons and just use the rules for linking weapons to increase the damage.

in regards to the can starfighters carry anti-capital ship munitions question, i would say yes as in much the same way real world fighter jets can carry nukes. while the larger nukes typically require a dedicated bomber for their delivery, smaller nukes can be carried by fighter jets. for star wars i would say that the larger anti-capital ship munitions are just too big for your starfighters requiring something more along the size of a light to medium space transport for proper delivery, but an x-wing, y-wing or more likely a k-wing could carry an anti-capital ship missile/mine/bomb that does somewhere in the area of 4D to 6D capital scale damage if not more.

now for ion torpedoes the damage would probably be around 8D - 9D starfighter scale. which, iirc, is around 2D - 3D capital scale. now if you and a few friends use command and all shoot an ion torpedo at a capital ship it will do somewhere in the area of 10D-11D starfighter scale or 4D-5D capital scale ionization damage. if you were all carrying anti-capital ship ion torpedoes and did the same action as before and the base damage is as suggested above then your combined damage would probably be around 6D-8D capital scale ionization damage. now that is a credible threat to an ISD.

i would say that a new rule to overcome scale isnt needed that you just need to be a little looser with the rules.

by your rule couldnt someone just get a couple dozen guys with blaster pistols and use command to take control of their actions and just shoot at anything and then destroy it at around or greater than death star scale?
_________________
Aim low, shoot high
I'm a pirate, need I say more?

d6holocron.com: Thedemonapostle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Starbeard
Cadet
Cadet


Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an interesting rule. It does need some fleshing out, but actually I quite like the elegance of the idea.

We see tiny starfighters grouping together to take on big capital ships in RotJ, and of course there are the many video games where this happens, so there has to be some tactical reason to throw starfighters at an ISD. In theory the combined attack would operate just like a normal fire-linked attack, but the 'reality' of the situation is that the starfighters aren't all combining their attacks at the same target to maximize damage. Instead, they are each attacking specific smaller targets—guns, shield capacitors, power transistors, tractor beams—stuff that starfighters can damage, crippling the ship when it's all added up.

In the game, you could have all of your starfighters attacking individual little targets on the ISD, keeping track of what has and hasn't been damaged, and how that affects the overall performance of the ship—or you could just abstract it and say that so many starfighters will deal one capital scale attack. It abstracts the action but the end effect is probably the same, as long as you are able to balance it so that three x-wings aren't blowing up ISDs every third or fourth attack.

And how about this: there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star. If we were to say that it takes 6 craft to bump up the scale, then that's two scales, taking them from 12 Starfighter-scale attacks to one Death Star-scale attack, assuming that General Dodonna is able to make a fantastic Command roll and coordinate all twelve fighters. They roll, they hit, they get a 'destroyed' damage result—a proton torpedo goes down the exhaust shaft and there goes the Death Star!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 5032
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starbeard wrote:
there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star.

We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they are so small they're evading our turbolasers.

Starbeard wrote:
there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star. If we were to say that it takes 6 craft to bump up the scale, then that's two scales, taking them from 12 Starfighter-scale attacks to one Death Star-scale attack, assuming that General Dodonna is able to make a fantastic Command roll and coordinate all twelve fighters. They roll, they hit, they get a 'destroyed' damage result—a proton torpedo goes down the exhaust shaft and there goes the Death Star!

So General Dodonna was the hero of the battle? Luke was just another fighter that bumped up the scale count? Use the Force, Luke?

Shocked
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 995
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things:
Ignoring Scale-
I would strongly advise against it as it could quickly become game breaking. In terms of Weapons for a larger scale, there are some weapons in the game that even with the Die Code differences can hurt larger scale items. Add in that smaller scaled attackers can more easily aim for week and vulnerable points on a larger scale attacker for additional damage boosts.
Additionally, with Starfighter Vs. Capital Ships, there is precedent in the Original Trilogy, the Prequels, and The new movies for snub fighters to be able to get close enough to a capital ship to be inside of it's shields )either by passing through an opening used for torpedo or engines or by skill piloting to avoid bouncing off...I would call for a pilot check of at least Moderate to difficult). The scale difference is 6D, but the Y-Wing carries Proton Torpedoes which are 9D at starfighter scale. With the Scale difference these couldn't do much against a Star Destroyer in a direct head on assault (7D hull), but aiming for vital points (Called shots as per 2E R&E could gain a damage bonus of 1D to 4D) and with a group of fighters making a coordinated attack...let's Say 6 (+2D combined bonus 2E R&E page 82-83) this means they have a chance of dealing serious damage even with scale.
Alternately - the fighters could target weapons or engines and if successful the GM could rule individual turrets destroyed or some speed lost, etc... (2E R&E combat Chapters and Called Shots).

Combining Actions -
I would use the existing combining actions rules for groups (2E R&E page 82-83), or the rules presented in the 1E Rules Companion, or 2E Gamemaster Screen and guide.

12 Starfighters Engaging the Death Star-
They exploited a weakness that was entirely plot driven - this had nothing to do with scale or combined actions at all. Very Clearly explained in the Original Star Wars, further elaborated on in Rogue One (though it adds nothing really new to the exploiting a weakness part really, just makes the fact such a weakness could slip by quality control somehow more palatable to some).
A much more accurate depiction of Combined Actions still being ineffective without a plot device to allow it is the Battle of Hoth = even with coordinated fire the infantry are not able to slow down or damage even 1 ATAT. Several Snowspeeders on an attack run also fail to do any appreciable damage.

For these reasons I would strongly urge caution before abolishing Scale.

And I am speaking with the experience of playing before true and proper scale was added to the game, and it has come a LONG way since it was first created in the 1E Rules Companion. In 1E, there was no fighting capital ships - they were plot devices... Didn't even have Die Codes for Hull in the first books.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Starbeard
Cadet
Cadet


Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Starbeard wrote:
there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star.

We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they are so small they're evading our turbolasers.

Starbeard wrote:
there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star. If we were to say that it takes 6 craft to bump up the scale, then that's two scales, taking them from 12 Starfighter-scale attacks to one Death Star-scale attack, assuming that General Dodonna is able to make a fantastic Command roll and coordinate all twelve fighters. They roll, they hit, they get a 'destroyed' damage result—a proton torpedo goes down the exhaust shaft and there goes the Death Star!

So General Dodonna was the hero of the battle? Luke was just another fighter that bumped up the scale count? Use the Force, Luke?

Shocked
Of course not—Luke was the one who rolled the attack, and he spent a Force Point! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Starbeard
Cadet
Cadet


Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Starbeard wrote:
there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star.

We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they are so small they're evading our turbolasers.

D'oh! You're right of course, I was wasn't bothering to think when I wrote that, and misremembered that the line about 30 ships line was only in the radio drama.

Okay, so in that case, we've got 30 ships, possibly 15 X-Wings (5 flights) and 15 Y-Wings (5 flights). We'll say the Y-Wings are better suited for the task of taking on the Death Star, which is why they were sent in first.

Using the 2e scales, the difference in scales is 18D: Starfighter (6D), Capital (12D), Death Star (24D).

If every X-Wing flight in the combined attack reduces the scale by 1D, then that brings us to a 13D scale difference. Then, if every Y-Wing flight reduces the scale by 2D, then that's only 3D scale difference.

Luke is the best pilot, and perhaps after some quick roleplaying through the battle he ends up being the only one able to make the shot. Perhaps some take a shot and miss or fail to damage; we'll ignore that the destroyed fighters are still being used in the combined attack, since this is just an abstract roll covering the overall results of the whole battle.

So Dodonna commands the rebels, coordinating them into a combined attack that overcomes most, but not all, of the scale. Luke then takes the shot with a -3D scale difference, and expends a force point to make the shot (in fact, since he's the Chosen One who can break the rules, he expends two force points, one for the shot, and one to double damage in exchange for not using any fire control or his weapons skill in the attack). The two proton torpedoes sink in, dealing a total of 9D+1 fire-linked damage, doubled to 18D+2, against the Death Star's 15D Hull (but we'll reduce it to 10D because it's the unprotected core), plus 3D for scale = 13D Hull. They roll, and Luke wins by at least 13+ points. The Death Star's is either destroyed outright, or gets critically damaged and rolls anything but 'disabled hyperdrives' or 'dead in space', which means it's destroyed anyway. The mighty battle station explodes!

Without Luke being able to use his special Force Point to break the rules and roll double damage in exchange for disregarding skill and fire control dice, it's likely that the rebels would have had to make multiple attacks against the exhaust port before the Death Star took significant damage. Luke's ability to blow the thing up in one shot really was one in a million!

I don't think I'd advocate for this as a hard rule for running battles all the time, but it is at least one expedient way of handling combats between different scales abstractly. Need to find out quickly if those four X-Wings are able to take out that star destroyer? Are your PCs rebel leaders in a sort of wargame roleplaying campaign, commanding multiple small battles each session? Then this can be a good option for that.

And it doesn't have to be the same rule every time either, the means of overcoming scale can be applied by the GM on a case by case basis. What works in one scenario doesn't have to work in all scenarios.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11596
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Death Star isn't a very good example for cross-scale combat. To paraphrase the film, its stats are designed around a direct, large-scale assault (that is, massed combat against fleets of capital ships). For the purposes of what we see in the film, it's better to treat the Death Star as a planet, and treat the various weapons, sensors, trenches and the exhaust port as terrain features.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Starbeard
Cadet
Cadet


Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The Death Star isn't a very good example for cross-scale combat. To paraphrase the film, its stats are designed around a direct, large-scale assault (that is, massed combat against fleets of capital ships). For the purposes of what we see in the film, it's better to treat the Death Star as a planet, and treat the various weapons, sensors, trenches and the exhaust port as terrain features.
I agree. I'm just spitballing an idea for how scale might be overcome for a one-off situation like the Death Star, in the specific case that the GM needs to know what happens without playing it out as a full adventure.

For example, if George Lucas was running his Star Wars game for his friends, but their PCs were over in some other part of the galaxy searching for the Kaibur Crystal during the Death Star attack. He would need to know if the rebel base on Yavin got blown up or managed to destroy the Death Star, because that would have lasting effect on the shape of the campaign. He could quickly adjudicate a one-off rule about overcoming scale similar to this, make the rolls and see what happens.

For PCs I think you're right, the best thing is to treat the Death Star as a planet and let the PCs pursue individual objectives just like they would if they were attacking an imperial base.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11596
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starbeard wrote:
I'm just spitballing an idea for how scale might be overcome for a one-off situation like the Death Star, in the specific case that the GM needs to know what happens without playing it out as a full adventure.

Well, again, I think it's a bad example. There are few things in the SWU more critical to the central plot than the destruction of the Death Star. Take that out and the whole universe as we understand it goes sideways. Unless it's your goal to set up a Star Wars Infinities campaign where the game takes place in an alternate universe, it's best to just assume that this happened.

In general, it's best to reserve dice-rolling for actions directly involving the player characters. For example, don't bother using a Tactics roll for Dodonna; he's a step removed from the action, a story piece used to move the characters along by telling the characters what task they need to accomplish next. Let one of the PCs roll Tactics to generate bonuses for what the PCs do next.

I don't mind coming up with rules for running fighter squadrons or capital ships in combat, but that's because I want characters to be able to engage in capital ship combat, not because I want to run mass battles out of sight of the PCs. Anything that doesn't directly affect them should just run in the background, or perhaps have general results tailored to how well the PCs do in their particular aspect of a larger battle.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11596
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple points on the OP (I assume, based on the description, that we're talking about the ion torpedo attack in Rogue One):

-There were five Y-Wings on the attack run, and each launched at least two attacks (one against the main hull and one against the ship's bridge, so we're likely looking at initial damage compounded by the damage from the second attack.

-Five Y-Wings firing dual linked torpedoes in a massed attack is ten torpedoes. There are a variety of different scale options out there, but for the sake of argument, we'll go with the RAW, which gives 1D for the first three combined, plus 1 for each additional, so 3D+1.

-Then there is the Accuracy Damage rule from RoE. The 6D Scale modifier means the ISD soaks at +6D, but it Dodges at -6D, which effectively means that the Y-Wings can pick and place their shots against known weak spots on the Star Destroyer for maximum effect.

-And shields may not factor in at all. WEG has waffled over the years as to whether or not torpedoes were affected by shields, but my current theory is that torpedoes are specifically designed to penetrate shields (with the trade-off being that they are slow and very short ranges).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0