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Amilyn Holdo
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Amilyn Holdo Reply with quote

I am currently reading "Leia, a Princess of Alderaan". Though I have little interest in the book, I had read an article stating the book explains the friendship between Leia and Holdo. Now I am almost through the book, so I figured what the heck, might as well stat Holdo out. Please comment and make suggestions.

Quote:

Amilyn Holdo
A human female born on the planet Gatalenta during the early Imperial Era. In the year 3 BBY, Holdo joins the Apprentice Legislature, an Imperial organization on Coruscant for youth in politics. While in the Apprentice Legislature, Holdo meets Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan, daughter of Senator Bail and Breha Organa. Holdo and Princess Organa spend quite a bit of time together during senatorial sessions and routine pathfinding training on various worlds such as Alderaan, Eriadu, and Felucia. While pathfinding on the planet Pamarthe, Holdo discovers Organa's involvement with the rebellion against the Galactic Empire. Soon after, Holdo helps Organa find passage to the Paucris system in order to warn the fleet of an impending Imperial attack.

Holdo is tall, blue eyes and light-colored skin. Holdo rebells against the peaceful culture of her homeworld and expresses herself by dyeing her hair vibrant colors, wearing vibrantly-colored clothing, and going on daring escapades. In spite of that, Holdo shows an interest in the esoteric practices of her planet, like meditation and astrology, and she is knowledgeable of the galaxy. Organa finds Holdo to be insightful and charming, but also irritating at times.

Holdo has a quirky personality, often getting distracted, speaking in riddles and metaphors with a monotone/singsong voice, and being eccentric. Her oddball persona hides a keen intellect. She is not afraid of death, and dreams of dangerous adventures "to get more comfortable with the nearness and inevitability" of it. Holdo is a determined and patriotic person, able to react to changing circumstances and ready to sacrifice herself for the cause.



Amilyn Holdo
Type: Quirky Apprentice Legislator
DEXTERITY 2D+2
(s) Athletics: skyfaring 3D+1
KNOWLEDGE 3D
Bureaucracy 3D+2, Expert: astrology 4D, Survival 3D+2
MECHANICAL 2D
PERCEPTION 2D+2
Persuasion 3D
STRENGTH 2D+2
Climbing/Jumping 3D
TECHNICAL 2D
Character Points: 3
Move: 10
Equipment: Vibrant colored clothing, jewelry, hair dyes, comlink, datapad

(As of The Last Jedi)
Type: Flawed Resistance Admiral
DEXTERITY 3D
Athletics: Skyfaring 4D, blaster 4D
KNOWLEDGE 3D+2
Brueaucracy 5D+2, Expert: astrology 5D, Planetary Systems 5D, Survival 4D, (s) Tactics: fleet 4D
MECHANICAL 2D
PERCEPTION 3D+1
Bargain 4D, Command 5D, Persuasion 3D+2
STRENGTH 2D+2
Climbing/Jumping 3D
TECHNICAL 2D+2
Force Points: 1
Character Points: 3
Equipment: Elegant flowing clothing, jewelry, hair dyes, comlink, datapad, blaster (4D)

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Last edited by shootingwomprats on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without opening up the can of worms that is TLJ debate (I was only "Lukewarm" at best on it myself, but like many many others I find discourse on the film devolves quickly into tired, polarized political discussion, etc etc), I suggest changing the template type wording of "flawed" to be more... specific, as in "Arrogant Noble" for example.

I suggest changing that adjective, in a meta-sense, so that it doesn't look like you're passing judgement (and thus opening up said can of worms), and in an in-game sense because it's too vague.
"Eccentric" would work, "Guarded" or some synonym of that, maybe? So as to retain the sense that she would later play her plan in TLJ too close to the vest, even if the plan was need-to-know?

Some additional rapid fire suggestions:

Swap out "expert" for "scholar" -- or make it a cultures specialization? Cultures: Gatalenta Estoerica? Add dice and/or a few pips to astrogation, capital ship piloting and/or space transports. Definitely crank up the willpower by at least a couple D. Bump up Con, and Search. Or bump the tactics dice by +1D? maybe go Tactics 4D, (s) Fleet 5D? Poe does know her by tactical reputation and name, if not by appearance.

Edit/PS: And Kudos on handling a controversial character in an even-handed way.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also see her having some skills in astrogation and cap ship piloting, as well as maybe languages and willpower..
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I'd also see her having some skills in astrogation and cap ship piloting, as well as maybe languages and willpower..


The problem I am going to have with this, I think she was a nearly complete ineffectual leader/strategist. Anyone else?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I'd also see her having some skills in astrogation and cap ship piloting, as well as maybe languages and willpower..


The problem I am going to have with this, I think she was a nearly complete ineffectual leader/strategist. Anyone else?

This has been the complaint expressed by several of my friends in the military. While she was dealt a bad hand insofar as the tactical situation when she took over from Leia, she also had a viable plan to at least salvage the core personnel of the Resistance as a basis to start rebuilding (although how much of that plan was Leia's, which Holdo simply inherited, is unknown).

However, she utterly failed in the leadership role, specifically, in a time of great crisis, she failed to properly address her subordinates' morale and assure them that there was a plan (thus leading to the Poe / Finn / Rose side mission).
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I'd also see her having some skills in astrogation and cap ship piloting, as well as maybe languages and willpower..


The problem I am going to have with this, I think she was a nearly complete ineffectual leader/strategist. Anyone else?


The challenge will be what your goal is, I guess. Your take on the character, what the filmmakers intend, a balance of somewhere between, etc. She's intended to be a sound strategist, but your mileage may vary. Personally, I believe she could have easily told others her plan to alleviate what was obviously growing dissent, but some have said the Resistance didn't know there could be in-person spies aboard and others have argued that Poe didn't need to know esp after disobeying direct orders, etc. (Again I wasn't particularly fond of the movie, so I don't feel strongly about supporting either option, but I am critical of her.)

For a sourcebook though? Go with authorial/film intent, or at least straddle the line. That said, I do think that including a Story Factor that is critical of her leadership style, etc would be appropriate -- and in line with the character conflict onscreen. There's a way of presenting that conflict well in your write-up, for sure.

(But re: the skills themselves, she definitely has some MEC and piloting skills beyond base 2D, as well as some adds in willpower, without a doubt.)

EDIT: Ah, C.McNeill's beaten me to the punch as I was typing! Basically agreed with that take, but re: the write-up, depends on the angle you want to take. Imho? Tread the line, be critical but without using super-obvious value judgement, which it looks like you're doing -- meaning that thus far, you seem to be using a "neutral" / even-handed approach.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that Holdo is a Vice Admiral, not a full admiral at all. Going through the information I have been able to gather about her, I see nothing that makes her stand out as special beyond having purple hair. In fact she does not join the Resistance military until a year before the attack on Starkiller base.

She commanded one ship to my knowledge and appears to have been a part of the New Republic government in some capacity, perhaps representing her planet. Though, I don't think so.

Below are Admiral Ackbar's stats from The Battle of Endor. I would assume they were the same or better in the next 30 or so years.

Quote:
Admiral Ackbar (as of Return of the Jedi)
Type: Alliance Admiral
DEXTERITY 3D
Blaster 5D+1, blaster artillery 4D+1, dodge 4D, melee combat 5D+1
KNOWLEDGE 3D
Alien species 7D, bureaucracy 7D+1, planetary systems 5D+1, survival 4D, survival: ociean/undersea 6D, tactics: capital ships 7D, tactics: fleets 6D, tactics: starfighters 5D+1, willpower 4D+1
MECHANICAL 3D+1
Astrogation 6D, capital ship piloting 5D+1, capital ship piloting: Mon Calamari battle cruiser 6D+1, capital ship shields 4D+1, sensors 5D+1, space transports 4D+2, starfighter piloting 4D+2
PERCEPTION 2D+1
Bargain 4D, command 8D, command: Mon Calamari crewmen 10D
STRENGTH 3D
Stamina 4D+1
TECHNICAL 3D+1
Capital ship repair 4D, computer programming/repair 4D+1, security 4D+2


If we use Ackbar for our base for Holdo we can extrapolate some skills. My contention is that Holdo was never a good leader and had passable skills in leadership and tactics, but nothing close to Ackbar. I am sure others will argue girl power, patriarchy and regardless of information sources she should be better than Ackbar.

Quote:
Amilyn Holdo (as of The Last Jedi)
Type: Resitance Vice Admiral
DEXTERITY 3D
Athletics: Skyfaring 4D, blaster 4D, dodge 4D
KNOWLEDGE 3D+2
Alien species 7D, bureaucracy 7D+1, planetary systems 5D, scholar: astrology 5D, survival 4D, (s) tactics: capital ships 6D, (s) tactics: fleets 5D, willpower 4D
MECHANICAL 2D
Astrogation 4D, capital ship piloting 3D+1, capital ship shields 3D+1, sensors 3D+1, space transports 3D+2
PERCEPTION 3D+1
Bargain 4D, command 6D+1
STRENGTH 2D+2
Climbing/jumping 3D+1
TECHNICAL 2D+2
Capital ship repair 3D+2, computer programming/repair 4D+1, security 4D+2

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Last edited by shootingwomprats on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great feedback here. I think the most glaring problem with the stats is the Mechanical 2D and no skills. How could you be an admiral without rising through the ranks, and how could you rise through the ranks without having any skill? A capital Mechanical should be at least 3D, and then give her some skills to reflect her rise to that position.

And regarding her flaws, I don't think the issue is that she was a "flawed character" or "ineffectual leader/strategist." That reads like the author intended her to be a flawed character. The real flaws are with the story itself. To quote myself in another thread this week, "Narratively, the whole purpose of Admiral Holdo was just to give Poe something to do in the second act... Poe's story is distrust of and rebellion against Holdo who was holding out on telling Poe the plan, but it is makes no sense for her to keep the plan secret in the first place... A new admiral was created instead of just using Ackbar in that role just so Oscar Issac would have a human actor to perform with instead of a muppet." Her refusal to tell the Poe the plan wasn't out of a character flaw. It is presented in the film as some (hokey) lesson for Poe to keep faith, something he apparently needed to become a better leader.

I've seen the movie six times now. Rian Johnson is actually trying to sell us on the idea that it was good and wise for Holdo to hold out on sharing the plan with Poe. However, the whole thing is just a contrivance of the screenplay just so Poe has a story in this movie. In Holdo's defense, she is just doing what the screenplay requires her to do. People say Finn's side mission served no purpose when actually it served the purpose of Finn growing as a person and finally committing to the rebel cause. Unless it has a huge impact on where Poe is as a character in Episode IX, I say the Poe/Holdo story in TLJ is what's actually pointless in TLJ.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
I see nothing that makes her stand out as special beyond her obvious LGBTQRSTUV+ colored hair and haircut.

"LGBTQRSTUV" is unacceptable here. We do not mock sexual/gender minorities here. Furthermore, having purple hair has absolutely nothing do with her gender or sexuality. My wife is a heterosexual female and has purple in her hair. This is pure and utter prejudice. Since purple hair for a human character in Star Wars is rare or unique, you could have easily replaced "obvious LGBTQRSTUV+ colored hair and haircut" with "purple hair". Think whatever you want, but please exercise some self-restraint on what you type out here. Thank you.
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m with you on Mechanical. If nothing else, this should be Holdo’s strong point, as evidenced by the Raddus’ hyperspace ram.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I’m with you on Mechanical. If nothing else, this should be Holdo’s strong point, as evidenced by the Raddus’ hyperspace ram.


From her past experience I see nothing that shows she has any of these skills. She was trained to be a senator. In fact I have a hard time justifying space transports or repulsolift ops as she gives me the impression of someone who has others drive her. I personally feel her appointment was more because of her political and personal connections to Leia than her actual experience. Keep in mind, though the Resistance has been around for years they don't have a good infrastructure or trained personnel.

As for Holdo's hyperspace ram I would put that down to a character sacrifice and a Force Point spent at a dramatically appropriate time. You will notice the updated version of Holdo has capital ship piloting 3D+1.
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the edited statblock seems more on point now!

And wow, I've haven't seen anyone ever say her stats should be better than Ackbar, or that she's a superior commander, especially not for the reasons you cite. That's a projection of a strawman argument her actual supporters don't really make / believe.

Agreed with Whill that the flaw lies in the script and characterization, and that hurts Holdo's character and the director's intention that she's a credible strategist. Anyway, the film clearly intends her to be good -- but as I'm sure we can agree on, rarely do sound military tactics ever play out onscreen for Star Wars, for nearly anyone. Those failings in the OT and PT have all be handwaved away for in-universe reasons, and so can this. Easily.

I'd even go so far as to scale back command -1D or a pip, but add that +1D to willpower? Why not flip MEC and STR? Is she really stronger than she is good with machines? Sure she can probably hold her own, but that can be reflected by pips in brawling or stamina. So she'd have a more reasonable military vice-admiral MEC.

Further suggestions: Type: Guarded Vice-Admiral, Willpower 6D (really tho, she doesn't give in to intimidation and if you were willing to go command at 6D?), MEC 2D+2 (with corresponding +2 goose in skills), Bargain 4D/5D, Command 5D+1, Con 4D+1, Persuasion 4D/5D, STR 2D (but with skills at 2D+2), Story Factor: Handling Morale in Crisis: Due to X during Holdo's time in command of the remnants of the Resistance, Holdo's credibility as a leader was cast into doubt. Spurred by her decision to keep him outside of crucial command circle decisions and by his own genuine concern for their survival, Poe Dameron led a mutiny. After Holdo's true plan was then revealed to the First Order, and Holdo sacrificed herself to salvage what lives she could, Dameron learned Y by example and moved forward.

Bingo! You can still be critical of the character/writing, and reasonably balance director/author intent with your viewer response!

Edit: Good point on the FP use and/on the resistance's ragtag-ness -- they do marshall other good military peeps tho and by that point Leia was seen a warmonger pariah, so her longtime contacts would have strong military leanings too. Imho, those MEC stats still need a couple pips here and there.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
From her past experience I see nothing that shows she has any of these skills. She was trained to be a senator. In fact I have a hard time justifying space transports or repulsolift ops as she gives me the impression of someone who has others drive her. I personally feel her appointment was more because of her political and personal connections to Leia than her actual experience. Keep in mind, though the Resistance has been around for years they don't have a good infrastructure or trained personnel.

All kinds of "official" character stats have skill choices that are seemingly not backed by their official background. In Holdo's case, there is actually more justification for Capital Ship Piloting and/or Astrogation because we actually see her using them on-screen.

Quote:
As for Holdo's hyperspace ram I would put that down to a character sacrifice and a Force Point spent at a dramatically appropriate time. You will notice the updated version of Holdo has capital ship piloting 3D+1.

But all a Force Point does is just double the original dice roll, so you're looking at a skill roll of 6D+2, which is fair, but not spectacular. In addition, the complaint has been made that, if the Holdo Ram is possible, why isn't it used more often in the films, EU? Why wasn't the Home One sacrificed at Endor with an "Ackbar Ram" against the much larger Death Star? My answer is that a combination of factors only make this a viable tactic in certain circumstances, and one of those factors is high Difficulty level. This has to be hard to pull off, else it would get used much more often. That necessitates a high Difficulty level which, in turn, necessitates a high skill level.

If nothing else, having good mechanical skills in combination with poor Command and Tactics skill levels would be an indicator of a decent pilot or navigator who had been promoted beyond the limits of her abilities.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But all a Force Point does is just double the original dice...


As I said before, it was not just the use of a Force Point, but it was 1. the sacrifice/death of a character, 2. loss of major equipment, 3. dramatically appropriate time, and 4. dramatically closed a scene and moved the story forward.

Mechanically I would have set the difficulty at 30+, require spending a Force Point to try and pull off the manuever with the understanding the character, is not going to survive.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amilyn Holdo (as of The Last Jedi)
Type: Resistance Vice-Admiral
DEXTERITY 3D
Athletics: Skyfaring 4D, blaster 4D, dodge 4D
KNOWLEDGE 3D+2
Alien species 6D, bureaucracy 5D+1, planetary systems 5D, scholar: astrology 5D, survival 4D, (s) tactics: capital ships 6D, willpower 4D
MECHANICAL 2D+2
Astrogation 4D+2, capital ship piloting 4D+1, capital ship shields 3D+2, sensors 3D+2, space transports 4D+1
PERCEPTION 3D+1
Bargain 4D, command 5D+1, con 4D+1, persuasion 4D
STRENGTH 2D
Climbing/jumping 3D
TECHNICAL 2D+2
Capital ship repair 3D+2, computer programming/repair 4D, security 4D
Story Factors:
-- Strict Commander: Holdo's previous leadership experience has been in politics and she has discovered it is not the same as military leadership. She projects an air of iron-willed determination and a strict adherance to the chain of command. Holdo compartmentalizes her decisions giving others the impression she doesn't trust them. Along with the brusque manner in which she chooses to deal with officers, she often feels isolated, cut off from the support of her subordinates and inadvertenatly undermining crew morale.

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