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Masquerade Force Power
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Masquerade Force Power Reply with quote

To my fellow GMs! I have a small conundrum for which I hope the community can help me come up with an answer for, regarding the Masquerade power converted from D20.

I'll post the power description here:
Quote:
This power allows a Jedi to enfold herself with an illusion that he or she has created. This illusion changes the appearance of the Jedi allowing her to effectively disguise herself. This power takes the place of the disguise skill for all practical purposes. However, no disguise is perfect, and an opponent can see through the illusion with an opposed Perception or control roll, if beaten, the opponent realizes that the appearance is an illusion. If the opponent’s roll exceeds the Jedi’s roll by 10 or more, then the opponent can devise the Jedi’s true appearance.


Okay, the main point I'm seeing is: This power takes the place of the disguise skill for all practical purposes.

My question is: if a Jedi is using the Masquerade power and their picture is taken for say an operating license for a ship captain, does the illusion hold on the captured image?

The fact that the power takes the place of the disguise skill would lead me to say yes, but I'm wondering what my fellow GMs here think.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since it reads like the jedi puts up an illusion, i'd say that is a mental manipulating thing, not one that fools digital sensing means.. So to ME, i'd say no.
However, if it was more of a holographic covering, i could see that working.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that Wookieepedia agrees with you. According to their sources, the power is to alter perceptions like affect mind.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Since it reads like the jedi puts up an illusion, i'd say that is a mental manipulating thing, not one that fools digital sensing means.. So to ME, i'd say no.
However, if it was more of a holographic covering, i could see that working.

Raven Redstar wrote:
It seems that Wookieepedia agrees with you. According to their sources, the power is to alter perceptions like affect mind.


Yeah, this makes sense. The Force can do many things but we've never seen (or at least I've never seen) anything to suggest that the Force can create holograms or other sorts of images out of nothing. It only makes sense that this sort of Force power would be mental manipulation, since there's plenty of precedent for that sort of thing where the Force can alter a person's perception by both making the target see something that isn't there or by revealing something that the target wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
The Force can do many things but we've never seen (or at least I've never seen) anything to suggest that the Force can create holograms or other sorts of images out of nothing. It only makes sense that this sort of Force power would be mental manipulation, since there's plenty of precedent for that sort of thing where the Force can alter a person's perception by both making the target see something that isn't there or by revealing something that the target wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise.

I beg to differ. The Doppelganger power, which originated in Dark Empire and was made canon by The Last Jedi, worked against Threepio in both instances, and since droids are immune to mental manipulations, there must be another explanation. We discussed it here.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention EU powers like Cloak which allowed a Jedi to bend light around them to sneak. I figured if a Jedi could manipulate light using the Force, then creating a Force induced holographic image over their body should be possible.

The power tricking the target seems a little too much akin to Affect Mind, and the power's description is rather vague on how it substitutes the disguise skill.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
The Force can do many things but we've never seen (or at least I've never seen) anything to suggest that the Force can create holograms or other sorts of images out of nothing. It only makes sense that this sort of Force power would be mental manipulation, since there's plenty of precedent for that sort of thing where the Force can alter a person's perception by both making the target see something that isn't there or by revealing something that the target wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise.

I beg to differ. The Doppelganger power, which originated in Dark Empire and was made canon by The Last Jedi, worked against Threepio in both instances, and since droids are immune to mental manipulations, there must be another explanation. We discussed it here.


That is true, TLJ did make the Doppleganger power canon, however that is a solely different power, one that creates a physical manifestation. This one seems, from all sources, to be a mental illusion. Ergo, it would not fool any form of sensor system, such as a digital camera, or the like.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
It seems that Wookieepedia agrees with you. According to their sources, the power is to alter perceptions like affect mind.

Do you have a link? I searched for Masquerade on Wookieepedia and got a bunch of results but nothing to do with a Force power.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
This one seems, from all sources, to be a mental illusion. Ergo, it would not fool any form of sensor system, such as a digital camera, or the like.

As near as I can tell, lumping Illusion powers in with the various Affect Mind abilities seems to be a choice made by whoever wrote up the Wookieepedia article, in spite of the fact that there is an existing distinction between the Mind and Illusion sub-disciplines (see the TOTJ Sourcebook). There is nothing in the original description, as posted by Raven, that clearly defines it as a mental-only illusion, and while Wookieepedia does contain a lot of useful information, it is not error-free, and certainly not an authoritative source.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
...and while Wookieepedia does contain a lot of useful information, it is not error-free, and certainly not an authoritative source.


Truly, sir, your gift for understatement is boundless and a credit to the human race. 8)

But joking aside, yeah, CRM has the right of it: Wookieepedia is very useful but is decidedly not a source that should be taken without a significantly sized grain of salt.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
...and while Wookieepedia does contain a lot of useful information, it is not error-free, and certainly not an authoritative source.


Truly, sir, your gift for understatement is boundless and a credit to the human race. 8)

Laughing

Quote:
But joking aside, yeah, CRM has the right of it: Wookieepedia is very useful but is decidedly not a source that should be taken without a significantly sized grain of salt.

Wookieepedia is to the SWU what Pick-N-Pull is to auto parts; there is a lot of information, all conveniently located in one place, with some degree of organization. However, not all of the information is useful or reliable, and it is up to the consumer to sort out which is which.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the OP talks about no illusion being perfect, with the chance that it may be seen through, I am reminded of the White Current illusion in the first book of the Black Fleet Trilogy, where Luke and Akanah are attacked at the site of Akanah's home. When Luke kills one of the men with his lightsaber, he is surprised because there is a spray of blood (which would normally be either nonexistent or greatly reduced due to the cauterizing effect of the saber's blade). This is later explained as an error on the part of Akanah, who was actually projecting the illusion, because she had no experience with the effects of lightsabers.

So, with regard to the question posed in the OP, it's going to depend greatly on how you see Illusions: mental or "pseudo-real." If the former, then obviously an illusion won't work against electronic equipment. If the latter, than any illusion will be just as effective against hardware (like Threepio's eyes) as against normal organic senses.

Personally, I prefer the latter, as the concept of Force Illusions has never been fully fleshed out, even though it is a part of the RAW. However, this is not to say that Jedi should have easy access to it.

On a related note, I've long thought that it would be interesting to treat the various Sith disciplines as natural aptitudes, allowing a Force user to specialize in a particular area of Force ability based on personal inclination and ability. It wouldn't need to be as extreme as, say, the Halcyon / Horn line's inability to use Telekinesis, but there are a lot of possibilities there.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Raven Redstar wrote:
It seems that Wookieepedia agrees with you. According to their sources, the power is to alter perceptions like affect mind.

Do you have a link? I searched for Masquerade on Wookieepedia and got a bunch of results but nothing to do with a Force power.


They don't have anything for Masquerade, but they do have something for the prerequisite: Illusion
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
They don't have anything for Masquerade, but they do have something for the prerequisite: Illusion

It's interesting that the section includes both mental illusions and non-mental astral projections under the same heading, even though describing them as different. This is a prime example of the questionable accuracy of Wookieepedia. Based on what's written in the article, non-mental illusions - "astral projections" - should be a completely separate power domain.
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