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Why "Torpedoes"?
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Here's an example of a Standard Concussion Missile under that system that addresses pretty much everything you mentioned:
    Standard Concussion Missile
    Cost: 1,500
    Skill: Starship Gunnery
    Lock-On Time: 1 standard action (for MAP purposes. Firing may be split between two rounds if the player chooses)
    Fire Control: 4D (7D for Follow-Up Attacks)
    Space Range: 1-5/12/25
    Atmosphere Range: 100m-500m/1.2km/2.5km
    Duration: 4 rounds (Once duration ends, the missile runs out of fuel and self destructs).
    Damage: 6D
    Special: If the missile misses, compare the degree of miss on the Gunnery roll to the following table.
      Missed By = Result
      <10 = Weapon is still homing, and may attack as normal the following round.
      10-20 = Weapon is out of position, but still in range. May not attack its target next round, but can attack normally in the round after next.
      21+ = Weapon has lost lock and can not re-engage. Safety settings engage and the weapon self destructs.


Adding hull value would be good as it was confirmed that missiles can be shot down.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is addressed elsewhere in the system. I think I gave it a 1D Hull at Heroic Gunnery Difficulty.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That is addressed elsewhere in the system. I think I gave it a 1D Hull at Heroic Gunnery Difficulty.

For sake of simplicity, this difficulty reflects size, speed and maneuverability of a target?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
That is addressed elsewhere in the system. I think I gave it a 1D Hull at Heroic Gunnery Difficulty.

For sake of simplicity, this difficulty reflects size, speed and maneuverability of a target?

Correct. The system also includes rules for add-on defensive blaster cannon that cover a starfighter's aft arc, but I didn't feel the need to go into excessive detail.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Quote:
For me the diff, is missiles can lock onto targets and 'pursue' them, while torps can't.


I don't remember seeing any rules that say that. Do you have a source or is it a house rule?


It's how i see them. No HR yet made for it.

Quote:
See, I'd like to combine both your points. Make torpedoes big, clumsy and slow, but can pack a major punch while degrading the effectiveness of shields, then make missiles fast and smart, but with a lighter punch. Per the RAW, concussion missiles aren't that different from proton torpedoes, just slightly less damage and better range. Besides, advanced torps aren't actually part of the RAW, just somebody's house rule as part of a badly done attempt to make stats for the X-Wing / TIE Fighter games.


If you look, ranges are exactly the same in WEG..1/3/7.

Naaman wrote:
I agree with the premise of this thread.

I never understood why anyone who could choose torpedoes or missiles would ever choose missiles.

I think that a good "lock on" rule would be nice for missiles (heck, just give them a fire control bonus if you want to keep it super simple), while torpedoes can be more destructive, but less versatile (make them easy for small ships to dodge, for example. Perhaps by way of the scale system).


That would be the easiest way to do it. Remove any FC bonus from Torps, but keep it as is, or up it for missiles..

Naaman wrote:

Another basic idea for locking on could simply be that a missile will continue to pursue it's target until it hits (something), or runs out of fuel (or, it gets diverted to another target by way of confusing it's heat sensors or some such). This simply forces the target to take a MAP to dodge the missile, making it that much harder to engage enemy fighters.


We've discussed that in the past, you would need to work out a max speed, flight duration (how many rounds it could go etc)..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If you look, ranges are exactly the same in WEG..1/3/7.

Depends on your source. The 1E to 2E Conversion in the 2E Rulebook gives the range of Missiles as 1-2/8/15. Yet more evidence that WEG stat writers aren't perfect.

Quote:
We've discussed that in the past, you would need to work out a max speed, flight duration (how many rounds it could go etc)..

That's only if you feel the need to treat missiles as vehicles trying to ram their targets, as opposed to treating them as weapons that can attack on their own if they miss the first time.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some Official WEG material for Torpedos and Concussion weapons in the 1E Sourcebook (I am unsure if it is the same in 2E Sourcebook as I never picked a copy up). Looking on page 8 reveals 3 paragraphs. Essentially it states they are mainly for ground attack, can be delivered with pinpoint acuracy at high speed with little chance for point defenses to intercept, and can penetrate both Ray and Energy Shields. In fact it states only full particle shielding can be useful in defense against them.
Later in the Sourcebook 1E on Page 95 It mentions that Torpedoes and missiles are a combination Energy/projectile weapon effective against the ray shielding on most starships and ground installations. It alludes Starfighters are too fast and maneuverable to hit with them.

Now, keep in mind, a lot has changed in official, unofficial, expanded Universe, and Star Wars in general since this was written. In Revenge of the Sith (the only movie of the prequels I find at all tolerable) we see vessels firing what are clearly some type of missile that stays on the field for a period of time and tracks the target. I would likely give these missile an Endurance Die Code and roll against the turns in play, failing indicating fuel exhausted etc..., and an independent Fire Control to act as their targeting/piloting skill for opposed rolls if trying to outmaneuver them. In episodes of Clone Wars and Rebels we see various types of Bombs and Missiles of differing type, possibly justifying some house rules, and I believe their were mines in one episode. I have heard that in Attack of the Clones there were Sonic Depth Charges but I am not going to touch that for so many reasons.

My point is, the official appearance and use of these types of armaments has clearly expanded since the original trilogy and RPG. So there is clearly some room for expansion and additional rules. I would still tend to lean in favor of not letting them get too far ahead, because with Lasercannons and Blasters and the speeds Starfighter combat takes place at, the technology should have long ago far outpaced even the smartest missile in my opinion.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
I would likely give these missile an Endurance Die Code and roll against the turns in play, failing indicating fuel exhausted etc..., and an independent Fire Control to act as their targeting/piloting skill for opposed rolls if trying to outmaneuver them.

I pretty much did all this for my Advanced Starfighter Combat system, although it is increasingly in need of an update...

Quote:
In episodes of Clone Wars and Rebels we see various types of Bombs and Missiles of differing type, possibly justifying some house rules, and I believe their were mines in one episode. I have heard that in Attack of the Clones there were Sonic Depth Charges but I am not going to touch that for so many reasons.

Technically, they were "Seismic Charges,' and the only people who think they were sonic in nature are the scientifically ignorant or the unimaginative. They're a lot easier to take if you view them as the first on-screen use of concussion weaponry, with the concussion actually being some form of energy that can manipulate strong nuclear forces without direct physical contact. IMO, tractor beams likely work along the same principle.

Quote:
My point is, the official appearance and use of these types of armaments has clearly expanded since the original trilogy and RPG. So there is clearly some room for expansion and additional rules. I would still tend to lean in favor of not letting them get too far ahead, because with Laser cannons and Blasters and the speeds Starfighter combat takes place at, the technology should have long ago far outpaced even the smartest missile in my opinion.

Energy weapons do have several notable advantages, in particular, ammunition storage (the reactive mass - presumably blaster gas - takes up a relatively tiny volume relative to a bullet or a missile), as well as firing speed (as in, don't have to wait for a sensor lock-on). Torpedoes and missiles should, IMO, be reserved for special targets, as in, when you absolutely positively have to take out that enemy ace in the TIE Interceptor, or the AT-AT threatening the base, you switch from guns to missiles and torpedoes.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Technically, they were "Seismic Charges,' and the only people who think they were sonic in nature are the scientifically ignorant or the unimaginative.


1) No need to get insulting toward anyone.

I never watched Attack of the Clones or Phantom Menace all the way through - there was too much early on in them I did not like.

2) Official source materials for the weapons I am referring too mentions them as both Seismic Charges and Sonic Mines - which is why I didn't want to touch them. Worse, and I just looked them up, the description of how they work just does not sit well. I accept a lot of Star Wars space combat is not realistic, but sound weapons in space is too much for me.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where the term Sonic Mines came from, but Obi-wan specifically calls the Seismic Charges in AotC. Considering the effect they had when detonated in an asteroid field, this is not inappropriate. I just think it's better explained as a subset of concussion weaponry, as it finally explains why a concussive weapon would be any sort of useful in space.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
[
Quote:
We've discussed that in the past, you would need to work out a max speed, flight duration (how many rounds it could go etc)..

That's only if you feel the need to treat missiles as vehicles trying to ram their targets, as opposed to treating them as weapons that can attack on their own if they miss the first time.


The speed portion is more for "Can they catch that ship going all out".
The duration is for "how long do they track to try and hit the target, before they run out of fuel."
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
... and the only people who think they were sonic in nature are the scientifically ignorant or the unimaginative.


Keep it civil, please.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
The speed portion is more for "Can they catch that ship going all out".

That sounds needlessly overcomplicated. Far simpler to just assume that a missile will always be faster than the fighter is chasing, then base the ability to evade said missile on the skill of the pilot, the maneuverability of the craft and whatever countermeasures the ship can deploy. In the instance of a long tail chase (ala Obi-wan in AotC), I would consider that like so:
    10-20 = Weapon is out of position, but still in range. May not attack its target next round, but can attack normally in the round after next.
It's clear that the missile was going to catch Obi-wan eventually, so he improvised a chaff decoy.

Quote:
The duration is for "how long do they track to try and hit the target, before they run out of fuel."

I've already worked that into my missile stats, with missiles having durations measured in rounds active, which in turn varies based on the size and technology level (standard or advanced) missile.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
... and the only people who think they were sonic in nature are the scientifically ignorant or the unimaginative.


Keep it civil, please.

Technically, I wasn't directing this at anyone on the forum. Kage's statement makes it clear that he doesn't agree with it, and is merely relaying what official sources say. And I don't see the issue in describing people who think sonic weapons function in the vacuum of space as scientifically ignorant, or in describing as unimaginative those with the inability to think outside the box when describing an energy effect in a space opera setting.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That sounds needlessly overcomplicated.
.


With all the add-on rules you've generated, i am surprised you think having a 'speed' rating for missiles, would be needlessly overcomplicated.
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