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A Force attribute?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So if the jedi in question doesn't have danger sense, would they get that 'second chance warning'?

Do you get a lot of Jedi characters who didn't pick Danger Sense practically from the get-go? I sure don't.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump because I'd like some input on an article I'm writing for the Adventurer's Journal.

A Force Attribute is pretty straightforward when it comes to incorporating it into a new campaign; it's treated just like all the other Attributes insofar as initial Attribute dice allocation. Likewise, if converting over in mid-campaign, it's pretty simple to take the character's starting Force skill dice an total them up to get a Force attribute.

What I'm wondering about is, say you picked a character template with no Force skills - and thus no starting Attribute or Skill dice in those skills - and have already allocated the full 18D of Attribute Dice, but you also checked Yes on the Force Sensitive line. Converting over to Force Attribute is meaningless if your character has the same 0D of Force Sensitivity as everyone else.

So, what should such a character have as starting Force dice? Should they just be given an automatic 1D (the bare minimum)? Or should they have to pay 10-20 CP in trade for it, much like how the RAW says a character can become Force Sensitive? Or should it be something else?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Giving this a bump because I'd like some input on an article I'm writing for the Adventurer's Journal.

A Force Attribute is pretty straightforward when it comes to incorporating it into a new campaign; it's treated just like all the other Attributes insofar as initial Attribute dice allocation. Likewise, if converting over in mid-campaign, it's pretty simple to take the character's starting Force skill dice an total them up to get a Force attribute.

What I'm wondering about is, say you picked a character template with no Force skills - and thus no starting Attribute or Skill dice in those skills - and have already allocated the full 18D of Attribute Dice, but you also checked Yes on the Force Sensitive line. Converting over to Force Attribute is meaningless if your character has the same 0D of Force Sensitivity as everyone else.

So, what should such a character have as starting Force dice? Should they just be given an automatic 1D (the bare minimum)? Or should they have to pay 10-20 CP in trade for it, much like how the RAW says a character can become Force Sensitive? Or should it be something else?

Ultimately I think it is better to start out with a Force Attribute system than to convert mid-campaign, but that doesn't help you include conversion just in case someone does want to convert mid-campaign...

In RAW, starting out as Force Sensitive but with no Force skills is just a way of getting 18D at char gen and still learning Force skills down the road. Since the Force attribute gives you Force skills, the conversion cost for characters that are already Force-sensitive Yes should be the cost to buy all three skills, which is 10 CPs each. So 30 CPs gets you 1D in The Force attribute.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Giving this a bump because I'd like some input on an article I'm writing for the Adventurer's Journal.

A Force Attribute is pretty straightforward when it comes to incorporating it into a new campaign; it's treated just like all the other Attributes insofar as initial Attribute dice allocation. Likewise, if converting over in mid-campaign, it's pretty simple to take the character's starting Force skill dice an total them up to get a Force attribute.

What I'm wondering about is, say you picked a character template with no Force skills - and thus no starting Attribute or Skill dice in those skills - and have already allocated the full 18D of Attribute Dice, but you also checked Yes on the Force Sensitive line. Converting over to Force Attribute is meaningless if your character has the same 0D of Force Sensitivity as everyone else.

So, what should such a character have as starting Force dice? Should they just be given an automatic 1D (the bare minimum)? Or should they have to pay 10-20 CP in trade for it, much like how the RAW says a character can become Force Sensitive? Or should it be something else?


In the game as is, just because someone's clicked force sensitive doesn't mean they have force powers. So why couldn't the same apply if you have a force attribute?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
In the game as is, just because someone's clicked force sensitive doesn't mean they have force powers. So why couldn't the same apply if you have a force attribute?

It has to do with how Attribute dice are allocated during character creation.

Take the Young Jedi template, for example. All told, the character gets 15D of Attribute dice because 3D of the initial 18 is split off into Control, Sense and Alter. The premise behind a Force attribute takes those starting 1D in each Force skill and combines it into a base Attribute of Force 3D, with Control, Sense and Alter as skills under it. Other Force user templates would have similar issues; the Quixotic Jedi would have 17D in regular Attributes and his starting 1D in Sense would become 1D Force, with Sense as a skill under it (personally, I think the Quixotic should get the full 18D, but with a Story Factor to the fact that the character is mynock-pudu crazy, which has penalties for social interaction, but I digress).

Now, take a Brash Pilot template, with 18D in Attribute Dice, but the player decided to make this pilot Force Sensitive. At the time of creation (under the RAW), this just means he gets an extra FP and he can learn Control, Sense and Alter without first spending 20 CP to change his 'Force Sensitive?: No' to 'Yes'.

Now, under the RAW, that's not an issue. However, if someone wanted to convert an existing character over from the RAW to a Force Attribute rule, the character now no longer has any starting dice from his initial Attribute pool with which to generate his new Force Attribute; all 18D of his Attribute dice are already distributed into his original six Attributes.

So the question is, since all of his starting Attribute dice are already allocated, and all he did was pick Yes for Force Sensitive, how much dice should he now have in his Force Attribute?

I think Whill is right about a player who invested the bare minimum in his PC being Force Sensitive getting a bare minimum return of 1D. At the moment, I'm trying to decide if he has the right of it by making the character pay 30 CP for that 1D or if the character should just pay the 20 CP the RAW requires for converting to Force Sensitive after character creation. Both have their merits.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just keep the 20cp requirement to shift to being force sensitive. BUT if they wish force powers, that's different.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the series is rife with people learning Force Powers, is there actually any precedent for someone becoming force sensitive?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
While the series is rife with people learning Force Powers, is there actually any precedent for someone becoming force sensitive?

No. The classic trilogy, increasingly as it went along, established that inherent Force ability is genetic. With the 2e character generation rule of selecting whether or not a character starts Force Sensitive, Yes was meant to represent people that were born Force Sensitive that hadn't had any training like Leia, and Luke at the beginning of ANH. The ability to become Force Sensitive after game play begins was just a character option made up for the game, not really in line with the hereditary Force basis of the films.

And I also don't care for the mechanic because you can get something for free at char gen that you have to pay for later, with the only "cost" for getting it for free at char gen being that FS: Yes characters have a little stricter morality to avoid DSPs. A player can just play the PC more immoral at the start and then just later decide that they are FS and only have the restrictions.

The Force Attribute bypasses the FS Yes or No. A character with 0D in the Force attribute is not FS, and a PC who has at least 1D is. Above, CRM is asking for conversion ideas if a group wants to convert this the new rules mid-campaign.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

And I also don't care for the mechanic because you can get something for free at char gen that you have to pay for later, with the only "cost" for getting it for free at char gen being that FS: Yes characters have a little stricter morality to avoid DSPs. A player can just play the PC more immoral at the start and then just later decide that they are FS and only have the restrictions.


Though if they are playing 'immoral', what would be the IC (and in game) justification for them now becoming force sensitive?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
While the series is rife with people learning Force Powers, is there actually any precedent for someone becoming force sensitive?

No.

Correct. Or at least, if there is, I've never heard of it. The closest approximation that occurs to me is Jorj Car'das in the HoT duology who learns the Aing-ti Monks teleportation abilities despite not being Force Sensitive

Quote:
The classic trilogy, increasingly as it went along, established that inherent Force ability is genetic. With the 2e character generation rule of selecting whether or not a character starts Force Sensitive, Yes was meant to represent people that were born Force Sensitive that hadn't had any training like Leia, and Luke at the beginning of ANH. The ability to become Force Sensitive after game play begins was just a character option made up for the game, not really in line with the hereditary Force basis of the films.

And I also don't care for the mechanic because you can get something for free at char gen that you have to pay for later, with the only "cost" for getting it for free at char gen being that FS: Yes characters have a little stricter morality to avoid DSPs. A player can just play the PC more immoral at the start and then just later decide that they are FS and only have the restrictions.

The Force Attribute bypasses the FS Yes or No. A character with 0D in the Force attribute is not FS, and a PC who has at least 1D is. Above, CRM is asking for conversion ideas if a group wants to convert this the new rules mid-campaign.

For the record, I'm not exactly fond of the rule that allows a character to become Force Sensitive post-creation. The only way I can see it being used would be through some sort of non-Jedi tradition where intensive meditation and/or martial arts training awakens a semblance of Force sensitivity. This would need to be somehow incorporated into a the storyline with the GM's approval cooperation, and even then, the PC would be unlikely to ever progress beyond a 1D Force Attribute.

However, since the rule is included in the RAW, and others may make use of that rule, I'm trying to find a way to incorporate it without providing the Force Sensitive character more advantages from the conversion process than a Force Attribute already does.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, how about this:

Being Force Sensitive requires a Force Attribute of at least 1D. It ceases to be free, and acquiring it post-start requires a triggering even (i.e. GM permission) and the usual 20 CP.

Without training in at least 1 Force Skill, you don't have any actual powers (perhaps a few that can be used "at attribute" with GM permission; think some of Luke's Bad Feelings), but being Force Sensitive gives you 1 extra force point, lets you accrue more than 3 Force points.

A Force attribute of higher than 1D does not help you, unless you've trained your Force Skills. As per usual, getting a new pip in a skill gets you a new power, if your teacher knows one (and wishes to teach it; not all teachers will be free with knowledge). Improving your Force attribute also brings a new power... but only one.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have planned is to allow characters to pick one "instinctive" power for every D of Force Attribute. The character will have a natural talent for those powers (-5 to Difficulty) and can roll their Attribute to bring them up. Obviously, the smart picks will be low Difficulty powers that a PC will actually have a chance of activating with 1-3 dice, things like Danger Sense and such. This represents Qui-gon's "he can see things before they happen... it's a Jedi trait," as well the EU trope that Jedi tended to be stronger in certain areas than others (ala the Horn/Halcyon line).

Characters still have to be taught Force skills to learn new powers, though. I'm trying to incorporate something along the lines of the suggestion in the TotJ Companion, where a character can use a power they haven't learned if they spend a Force Point, but I'm still chewing on the specifics.
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