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Reorganizing Force Powers
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
With the system I worked out, almost all of the powers work exactly the way they were written with a few small exceptions. To make them single roll, most multi-tier powers got their difficulties increased to essentially give the power the MAP penalty without actually giving them a MAP penalty. The one exception that I can think of was Affect Mind, because I feel like the power got way super over-complicated in RAW, so it might not have had the difficulty increased quite that badly.

For some of the powers, I would choose the higher difficulty between skills, so if one had an easy difficulty and the other had a difficult, I would make the power roll single and they just had to hit the difficult difficulty.

Logical. This is my general thought process going into it.

My first idea for single Force power rolls and preserving a good amount of the original die roll possibilities was to just add the difficulties together and then add the skill dice applicable to it together. But that would allow some power that requires low control and high alter to have a much better chance with converse skill levels, and that would only add to the 'bucket-of-dice' issue of D6 games. So I chucked this idea for single roll Force powers.

Advanced skills do not just default to the attribute. My idea for Alter being an advanced skill is to account for people like Chirrut Imwe, who are obviously Force-sensitive with Sense and Control type of abilities, but do not have overtly Jedi abilities like Telekinesis and Affect Mind, which require Alter. Sense and Control come from just having The Force attribute, but Alter normally only comes with training. In TPM, Anakin Skywalker clearly has The Force but does not yet use any Alter-based powers. In AotC, which is after 10 years of training, he has Alter. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a PC who starts out with the prerequisites for Alter starting out with Alter with a background that does not include Force training, in other words his natural abilities include Alter. But I would think of that character as a rare exception and not the norm for natural Force ability. It seems imperative to me that the Force system in general allows for people to have The Force attribute but not automatically have Alter with it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I was thinking more about how a character can learn a new Power without improving his Force Skill, at the cost of 5 CP. If the same pattern holds for improving Force Skills with or without a teacher, a character could conceivably learn a new Power without a teacher at double the cost (10 CP). As an aside, I'd probably also increase the CP cost depending on the complexity of the Power (8 CP base for a C/S, C/A or S/A, and 10 base for a C/S/A). As far as explaining it in the game, I'd say that, via meditation and farseeing, the Force itself reveals the possibility of the new power to the Jedi, which inspires him to pursue it through his own efforts.

There is also the Force Point rule suggested in the TOTJ Companion, where a character can use a Power in a moment of critical need by expending a Force Point.

Those options are not unreasonable, but I may end up having less powers than skill pip increases so there may not be enough powers to go around to let PCs get new ones without a skill pip increase. I know I'm not going to have every single power in TotJ. My Force system's focus is the film powers, and the other powers I find to be reasonable abilities to exist with the film powers. And I may end up consolidating some powers into multiple uses of a single power. Do we really need Accelerate Healing, Control Disease, and Detoxify Poison? Maybe, maybe not. They are all related.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

garhkal wrote:
I've often seen DM's have a rule where the 'student can't be taught' if the teacher is not 2d or more above where you are training to. So if the teacher's force skill level is 6d+2 Con/6d Sen/7d Al, the one learning from him can ONLY go up to 4d+2/4d/5d under that teacher.

2D higher is too stiff. At most I can see 1D higher. I'm ok with teachers training Jedi PCs up to their own level. In my campaigns it is not uncommon for PCs to learn everything they can from a master and move on, so PCs often end up improving beyond the ability of their early teachers.


I think their 2d higher, comes from extrapolations of what's on page 140 in the core book.
Quote:
A teacher must have at least 3D in
the Force skill to be taught; the teacher's skill
level must exceed the student's skill level.
A Jedi student must have a teacher to learn a Force
skill. Learning a Force skill requires one week of intensive
study and costs 10 Character Points. (The training
time may be reduced one day per additional Character
Point spent; the minimum training time is one day.)
The character gets the skill at ID. (The character is
also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill; see
"Force Powers.")


So since someone can't even do the teaching of another till they have 3d, and that just gets the one they are instructing, up to 1d, that gives a 2d gap..

CRMcNeill wrote:
I was thinking more about how a character can learn a new Power without improving his Force Skill, at the cost of 5 CP. If the same pattern holds for improving Force Skills with or without a teacher, a character could conceivably learn a new Power without a teacher at double the cost (10 CP). As an aside, I'd probably also increase the CP cost depending on the complexity of the Power (8 CP base for a C/S, C/A or S/A, and 10 base for a C/S/A). .


Agreed. I'd say the base 5cp (doubled since they are learning it on their own), would be increased for those powers which normally would be 2 force skill taps, or 3 taps.. So say 10/15/20?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing to think about is this:

For those who think Jedi are OP, remember that after they are no longer under a teacher, they have to pay 2CP per pip when raising force skills.

Our group has found this to be unreasonably restrictive, and so did away with it, allowing that when a Jedi reaches knighthood, that extra cost goes away.

My opinion is that ultimately, the PCs should be comparable to the film characters all other things being equal. For example, Luke in ANH is a noob, and therefore, a starting PC would be a legitimate threat to him, if they were to fight. Likewise, at the end of RotJ, a PC who has done as much as Luke by that point, should also be a threat. If the campaign doesn't get that far, then so be it.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I think their 2d higher, comes from extrapolations of what's on page 140 in the core book.
Quote:
A teacher must have at least 3D in
the Force skill to be taught; the teacher's skill
level must exceed the student's skill level.

This pretty much covers it. The teacher just needs a minimum skill level of 3D, and has to have a higher skill level than the student. This means, at 3D, he can teach anyone with a skill level up to 2D+2. The 1D just means that, if you teach, say, Control to a someone who doesn't know Control, once they successfully learn the skill, they have it at 1D (as opposed to +1 or +2) and improve from there.

Of course, those of us who are using a Force attribute could likely throw that minimum 1D out and just have it start from the Attribute, and successfully teaching it to someone starts them at Attribute +1.

Quote:
I'd say the base 5cp (doubled since they are learning it on their own), would be increased for those powers which normally would be 2 force skill taps, or 3 taps.. So say 10/15/20?

I went with 5/8/10 as the base for learning with a teacher, which would make it 10/16/20 when learning a new power without a teacher.

Obviously, though, it's not going to become an issue until higher levels, because the CP cost of learning a power for free while improving a skill will always be a better bargain until the character's skill level starts sloping up.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
My idea for Alter being an advanced skill is to account for people like Chirrut Imwe, who are obviously Force-sensitive with Sense and Control type of abilities, but do not have overtly Jedi abilities like Telekinesis and Affect Mind, which require Alter.

An alternate take on this would be to put Attribute limits on when skills can be learned. So, Sense requires a minimum attribute of 1D, Control requires a minimum of 2D and Alter requires 3D. Then give Chirrut a Force of 2D, which allows him to learn Control and Sense, but not Alter, thus giving him access to the Control, Sense and Control/Sense Power Lists.

Quote:
I know I'm not going to have every single power in TotJ.

Agreed; some of them are just plain silly. I would, however, like to see more in the way of Light vs. Dark powers.

Quote:
My Force system's focus is the film powers, and the other powers I find to be reasonable abilities to exist with the film powers. And I may end up consolidating some powers into multiple uses of a single power. Do we really need Accelerate Healing, Control Disease, and Detoxify Poison? Maybe, maybe not. They are all related.

Indeed, and I'm not at all averse to some powers being combined for the sake of simplicity. A Force Healing power - with varying degrees of rules and Difficulties for dealing with diseases and poisons as well as injuries - is a strong candidate for that treatment.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I think their 2d higher, comes from extrapolations of what's on page 140 in the core book.
Quote:
A teacher must have at least 3D in
the Force skill to be taught; the teacher's skill
level must exceed the student's skill level.
A Jedi student must have a teacher to learn a Force
skill. Learning a Force skill requires one week of intensive
study and costs 10 Character Points. (The training
time may be reduced one day per additional Character
Point spent; the minimum training time is one day.)
The character gets the skill at ID. (The character is
also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill; see
"Force Powers.")

So since someone can't even do the teaching of another till they have 3d, and that just gets the one they are instructing, up to 1d, that gives a 2d gap..

Yeah, per RAW 3D is just the minimum Force skill level needed to teach. Another rule is that the teacher's skill must exceed the learner's current skill before training begins, which corresponds to the regular skill training rules. Since you only increase skills one pip at a time, this means that teacher's skill can be only one pip higher once the student's skill is at least 2D+2. Since 3D is the minimum skill level needed to teach, the 2D skill difference will only occur when a teacher is training a student to first learn a skill they don;t already have which begins at 1D.

In my The Force attribute system, every Force-sensitive character has Control and Sense at 1D at least (1D in The Force attribute and no skill dice allocation to Control and Sense). I think the 3D minimum skill level to train others works.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Of course, those of us who are using a Force attribute could likely throw that minimum 1D out and just have it start from the Attribute, and successfully teaching it to someone starts them at Attribute +1.

So your Force skills do not default to the attribute like normal skills under normal attributes? The skills still have to be taught?

CRMcNeill wrote:
An alternate take on this would be to put Attribute limits on when skills can be learned. So, Sense requires a minimum attribute of 1D, Control requires a minimum of 2D and Alter requires 3D. Then give Chirrut a Force of 2D, which allows him to learn Control and Sense, but not Alter, thus giving him access to the Control, Sense and Control/Sense Power Lists.

That's an option, but I don't allow improving attributes so a character without 3D in The Force would never be able to learn Alter. I wouldn't choose that option because I want characters that only have 1D in The Force attribute to be able to have Alter (eventually, even if not at first).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
So your Force skills do not default to the attribute like normal skills under normal attributes? The skills still have to be taught?

What I mean is that, under the RAW (without a Force Attribute), Force Skills have no Attribute to Default to, and thus a skill newly learned defaults to 1D. Under a Force Attribute system, the Skill would default to the Attribute, so if a character with a Force of 3D is taught Alter, beginning with a minimum skill of 4D may be excessive. What I suggest is that, since a Force Attribute is the default skill level, successfully learning a new Force skill should start at Attribute + 1, rather than Attribute +1D. The Force user is already getting a serious boost up from the RAW by use of the Force Attribute, so starting the new Skill at 3D+1 instead of 4D is a more balanced choice. I seem to remember that starting Force skills at 1D without an Attribute was primarily to give characters a chance at success that wouldn't be possible at the 0D+1 or 0D+2 level.

Quote:
That's an option, but I don't allow improving attributes so a character without 3D in The Force would never be able to learn Alter. I wouldn't choose that option because I want characters that only have 1D in The Force attribute to be able to have Alter (eventually, even if not at first).

Actually, not being able to ever learn Alter would fit with the prequels. Recall that not all Jedi candidates had the potential to be padawans, and were instead shunted aside into the Service Corps.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple questions on Alter as an Advanced Skill...

1) If Alter doesn't default to the Attribute, how do you play characters with more powerful Force Attributes (Yoda, Anakin, and likely Sidious)? If the Attribute has no bearing on the level of their Alter skill, then they default to the same level as, say, a character with Force 1D. How does this represent their greater natural connection to the Force?

2) What are Alter's prerequisites, and does it still stack with them? Or is the Attribute itself the prerequisite, allowing it to stack, but with the steeper CP cost slope keeping it from getting out of hand?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Alter Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
That's an option, but I don't allow improving attributes so a character without 3D in The Force would never be able to learn Alter. I wouldn't choose that option because I want characters that only have 1D in The Force attribute to be able to have Alter (eventually, even if not at first).

Actually, not being able to ever learn Alter would fit with the prequels. Recall that not all Jedi candidates had the potential to be padawans, and were instead shunted aside into the Service Corps.

If a player elects to play a Force-sensitive PC, and it is part of his character concept/arc to never learn Alter, we don't need rules to codify that. He can just never learn Alter. But if a player wants to play a Force PC that doesn't start with Alter, I want them to have the option of only having 1D in The Force and still learning Alter some day.

As for the Jedi younglings that never got chosen to be a padawan, they are all NPCs until a PC is made with that background (sounds like a cool idea for one actually). If a PC with that background doesn't already have Alter, I'm ok with the PC having the option to learn it after play begins. Other I generally don't run games in that era, in my SWU's Jedi Order, the ability to learn Alter was not the determining factor is becoming a padawan or not. They could be passed up for character flaws that have nothing to do with Force potential. Obi-Wan was clearly was clearly strong in the Force, but in the EU, I believe character was the reason Obi-Wan almost didn't get chosen (he was impatient, angry, and headstrong).

CRMcNeill wrote:
A couple questions on Alter as an Advanced Skill...

1) If Alter doesn't default to the Attribute, how do you play characters with more powerful Force Attributes (Yoda, Anakin, and likely Sidious)?

I usually don't play characters that powerful, and these NPCs are beyond the capability of PCs in my game.

CRMcNeill wrote:
If the Attribute has no bearing on the level of their Alter skill, then they default to the same level as, say, a character with Force 1D.

No they don't. These NPC would have high Alter skills. They would never appear as starting PCs.

Of these three, I would say that Palpatine would be a character that definitely had Alter without any Force training, Anakin didn't, and Yoda - who knows? (In the EU, Palpatine used the Force to kill his entire family at age 17, and then he began Sith training.) But Palpatine is an NPC so he doesn't have to conform to my PC character creation and advancement rules.

CRMcNeill wrote:
How does this represent their greater natural connection to the Force?

It doesn't. Natural Force ability is represented primarily by The Force attribute (which Sense and Control default to). For human Force-sensitive PCs, they can start between 1D-3D in The Force attribute. Starting PCs could possibly have 2D allocated to Sense and Control that is considered part of their natural ability if their background does not involve any training before play begins. They could also possibly start with Alter up to 2D, and that could be considered part of their natural ability if their background does not involve any training before play begins.

NPCs could possibly have more than 3D in The Force attribute, and NPCs could possibly have an Alter more than 2D without training. NPCs only need functional stats for the times they appear in the adventure. Their stats do not have to retroactively conform to starting PC and PC advancement rules (although most will).

CRMcNeill wrote:
2) What are Alter's prerequisites, and does it still stack with them? Or is the Attribute itself the prerequisite, allowing it to stack, but with the steeper CP cost slope keeping it from getting out of hand?

At the moment, they are (A) Alter: Perception 2D+1, Willpower 3D, Sense 3D, Control 3D. I remember thinking that I wanted a PC with only 1D in The Force attribute to have access to Alter, so to do so they would have to allocate 2D of starting skill dice to both Control and Sense.

As for advanced skill stacking with prerequisites, I have more prerequisites (including attribute ones), so I use a common sense approach where stacking isn't automatic. It only stacks if it makes sense. I never really thought of any cases Alter would stack with anything. And if I had Alter stacking on The Force attribute, then I might as well just make it a regular skill of The Force attribute.

But now that you bring up stacking, maybe stacking Alter on Control and Sense is how I will handle those powers that use Alter with one or both of the other skills, in my single roll system. Something to think about.

EDIT: No, stacking brings us back to the ol' bucket of dice issue at higher skill levels. I personally don't really have an issue with bucket of dice because I think rolling a lot of dice is fun and counting pips is not hard. But players might not like it so that doesn't work.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my Dueling Sabers alternate rule, I gave Form VII both "prerequisites" and "requirements." Basically, the background of Form VII required that the practitioner had to have a background in Forms II through V, but since all of the Forms used the Advanced Skill, I didn't want to make Forms II through V prerequisites, as they would then stack with Lightsaber and Form VII. Instead, I gave Form VII the basic prerequisites (Lightsaber, Brawling, etc), but then also required that, to learn Form VII, the character had to have at least 2D in Forms II through V.

You could do something similar here, and say, for instance, that learning Alter requires 2D+1 in Perception, but as a Requirement, not a Prerequisite.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Yeah, per RAW 3D is just the minimum Force skill level needed to teach. Another rule is that the teacher's skill must exceed the learner's current skill before training begins, which corresponds to the regular skill training rules. Since you only increase skills one pip at a time, this means that teacher's skill can be only one pip higher once the student's skill is at least 2D+2. Since 3D is the minimum skill level needed to teach, the 2D skill difference will only occur when a teacher is training a student to first learn a skill they don;t already have which begins at 1D.


But if you take that quote in it's fullness.. The student is learning the skill at 1d, and needs a master with at least 3d to teach him. So that shows there's a 2d difference..
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Reorganizing Force Powers Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But if you take that quote in it's fullness.. The student is learning the skill at 1d, and needs a master with at least 3d to teach him. So that shows there's a 2d difference..

No, those are just the starting minimums. There is nothing there that says a character with 4D can't provide training to a character with 3D.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: RAW Reply with quote

Quote:
A teacher must have at least 3D in the Force skill to be taught
Quote:
the teacher's skill level must exceed the student's skill level.

garhkal wrote:
I've often seen DM's have a rule where the 'student can't be taught' if the teacher is not 2d or more above where you are training to. So if the teacher's force skill level is 6d+2 Con/6d Sen/7d Al, the one learning from him can ONLY go up to 4d+2/4d/5d under that teacher.

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
But if you take that quote in it's fullness.. The student is learning the skill at 1d, and needs a master with at least 3d to teach him. So that shows there's a 2d difference..

No, those are just the starting minimums. There is nothing there that says a character with 4D can't provide training to a character with 3D.

Right. garhkal, that 2D difference does not continue on up like in your example. The two rules are independent of each other but both apply.

(1) You have to have "at least 3D" to teach. That includes teaching someone a skill they don't already have, so they start at 1D like the example. That also includes training a student from 1D+1 to 1D+2, or 2D+2 to 3D. You can do all that with a 3D Force skill.

(2) The second rule says the teacher's skill must exceed the student's. By definition, 5D exceeds 4D+2. If it meant "exceeds by 2D", it would say that. Since it doesn't say a specific amount, then it can exceed by any amount. The smallest amount a skill can exceed another skill by is 1 pip. So it can exceed by 1 pip or more.
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