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GM Uses The Force!
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: GM Uses The Force! Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

The GM is looking for an excuse to railroad the story on to Bespin.


Just like TPM when Sith got trace of Padme.

But in Ep IV tables have turned:

Quote:
Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort


With Vader and Emperor's skills and all the CP and FP?
Well, maybe like house ruled Danger Sense, it should be more GM controlled power, giving some vague hints and suggestions and not like temporal TV with infinite number of channels with top of 75% to 100% accuracy. This can really blow the plot of an adventure...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modified by Relationship, perhaps? Luke had direct personal connections to the people in his vision. Vader was hunting for strangers, or at the very least, people he didn't know he needed to be looking at.

Modified by Proximity, as well. Bespin and Hoth had to be close enough for a hyperspace hop in a snubfighter; Vader had it narrowed down to "this galaxy."
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I ran games, I loved Force Users and Force Sensitives because I could toy with them a bit. The force being vague and mysterious gave me some leeway to use to help "steer" players or characters the way I wanted by giving them partial and vague information that would affect their choices. Force Visions and dreams was one of the ones I used a lot (not quite as much as "You have a bad feeling").

I generally broke the Visions and Dreams up into a few distinct types - for the purposes of this thread the two most important type distinctions are Active and Passive.

Passive Force visions are those initiated by the GM (me) for the sole purposes of adding to the plot, moving the plot along, imparting some information (useful or otherwise), or motivating a character. No Die rolls were needed or used most of the time - and these ranged greatly in terms of detail and length. Most often I would impart such visions to a force user when meditating or at rest or asleep. Depending on the nature of the vision I may on occasion (to build drama) call for a willpower or control roll or have it become surreal, take a dark turn, have shadowy figures beckon and welcome the character, or have the character snap out of it disturbed - as Luke did in ESB. These were often best used for giving mere glimpses at Possible futures, or past events I found...or in a very abstract set of descriptive surrounding current events that could help players understand or outwit an enemy if they figured out the meaning (I know it's different franchise, but I liked the Dream Sequence in B5 with Kosh and the Raven and the riddles).

I only ever gave such visions to mere force sensitive characters when asleep, drugged, or in altered states of mind.

I never gave a true force vision to a non-sensitive or non-force Users (though I did have a malevolent Sith Holocron Guardian keep giving visions to one such character...but that's a whole other story).

Active force visions are fairly self explanatory - the force user actively reaches out with the force for a desired purpose to try to glean some knowledge on persons, places, things, events, etc... These are initiated usually by the player announcing in some fashion they wish to reach out with the force to see, predict, understand, locate, etc... (I run the force somewhat freestyle according to 1E and do not require players to know or memorize power lists...I prefer to have them describe their desired effect then I decide if it's possible and what Skills need checked and difficulty - with some slight mods meant for another discussion). I have often had players who experience a passive vision actively try to focus on it and get more details - sometimes with moderate success. How detailed or easy to understand an Active Vision is depends on how successful the force user is when rolling - with each level of success increasing accuracy and detail provided (up to a limit where I decide too much would break the plot).

I never allow non-force Sensitives to try active visions... and almost never would allow only a Force Sensitive to try. If/when I do allow a Force Sensitive to try to divine through the force, any end result will be vague at best, and I would use their number of Force Points as their Force Die Code.

I have so much more I could say and go into, but a lot is minutia and ramblings, so those are my main thoughts on this.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Modified by Relationship, perhaps?

In case of Vader vs Leia and Luke it won't help much, right? Twisted Evil

KageRyu
The problem here is with locations. There's Emperor. He sits comfortably and declares: "where's the rebel base" - present time.
Control: v. easy by proximity. (35)
Sense: it's a location and it does not resist so v. easy (5)
35 is no challenge for him - we know his skill.

So he gets 100% vision:
Quote:
"100% means that the character’s vision
is even more accurate and detailed, complete with minor, almost
trivial details."


In the movies it's more like hints, suggestions, sometimes even feelings and emotions (Yoda sensing Anakin pain and dark side progression on Tatooine). I does not work like watching a detailed recording from a past, which is suggested by RAW. Hence, my doubts about it.

KageRyu wrote:
(up to a limit where I decide too much would break the plot).

Exactly, the plot.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Modified by Relationship, perhaps?

In case of Vader vs Leia and Luke it won't help much, right? Twisted Evil

So the fact that they are effectively strangers is totally wiped out by the fact the they are genetically related? I can see being family as an additional modifier to factor in, but if it's family you've never met? Come on.

How many people in the world have family that they have never met, and are effectively unknown to them? Shared genetics will certainly have a stronger connection, but the interpersonal relationships - getting to know someone personally, and their "feel" in the Force - that's what's going to have a much greater effect.

Quote:
The problem here is with locations. There's Emperor. He sits comfortably and declares: "where's the rebel base" - present time.
Control: v. easy by proximity. (35)
Sense: it's a location and it does not resist so v. easy (5)
35 is no challenge for him - we know his skill.

This assuming your calculations are correct, and that picking one planet out of millions of inhabited ones will be a Very Easy task.

It also assumes that Proximity Modifier table is a hard cap. If it's +20 just for being on different planets in the same system, +30 for not being in the same star system would likely be just in that sector. Once you get up to transgalactic distances, modifiers could easily be much higher.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
So the fact that they are effectively strangers is totally wiped out by the fact the they are genetically related? I can see being family as an additional modifier to factor in, but if it's family you've never met? Come on.

Yes. Due to blood relations I would not imply full +30 modifier, but hide it from a player. But let's face it: +35 a challenge for Vader?

Quote:
It also assumes that Proximity Modifier table is a hard cap. If it's +20 just for being on different planets in the same system, +30 for not being in the same star system would likely be just in that sector. Once you get up to transgalactic distances, modifiers could easily be much higher.

Yes as a house rule. But there's nothing in RAW for Force Power proximity as "would likely in the same sector" and + 30 is max. Like +30 is also max for Relationship modifier. That's why Vader kept "molesting" Luke with Projective Telepathy in RotJ deleted scene.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
But let's face it: +35 a challenge for Vader?

Quote:
But there's nothing in RAW for Force Power proximity as "would likely in the same sector" and + 30 is max. Like +30 is also max for Relationship modifier.

But it's just not realistic to assume that a modifier that scales up to +20 while still in the same star system would plateau at +30 just for being outside of that star system, no matter how much further away one got. WEG understood their rule set wasn't going to cover every eventuality, and that we as players would move beyond it as needed. Proof? Read my signature. Just because WEG stopped at +30 does not mean it should be a hard cap.

Even then, you're still looking at a modifier in the +50 range, at a minimum. Considering the stellar distances involved, I'd probably ramp it up to +70 or +80.

Quote:
That's why Vader kept "molesting" Luke with Projective Telepathy in RotJ deleted scene.

Key word: deleted scene. And at that point, Luke and Vader had met face to face for a Lightsaber duel, so the Relationship Modifier had dropped.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Modified by Relationship, perhaps?

In case of Vader vs Leia and Luke it won't help much, right? Twisted Evil

Except, yes it would as although they are blood relations, Vader is not only not familiar with either one of them he believes they are dead - so I would not only impose the maximum penalty for complete and total stranger, but an additional +30 penalty for the fact he believes them to be deceased in the first place. This would hold true to Any force user who declared he was looking for a dead family member they never met or knew but only suspected existed or heard of in my games - especially given the core of the force is belief.

Darklighter79 wrote:

KageRyu
The problem here is with locations. There's Emperor. He sits comfortably and declares: "where's the rebel base" - present time.
Control: v. easy by proximity. (35)
Sense: it's a location and it does not resist so v. easy (5)
35 is no challenge for him - we know his skill.

So he gets 100% vision:
Quote:
"100% means that the character’s vision
is even more accurate and detailed, complete with minor, almost
trivial details."


Darklighter79 wrote:

Yes as a house rule. But there's nothing in RAW for Force Power proximity as "would likely in the same sector" and + 30 is max. Like +30 is also max for Relationship modifier. That's why Vader kept "molesting" Luke with Projective Telepathy in RotJ deleted scene.

I will address both of these at once because...
Yes there are RAW, the entire relationship chart works with locations too because it represents familiarity with something. The Emperor looking for a location he is completely unfamiliar with, has never seen, and does not know where to begin to look - that would be tantamount to complete stranger not of species (completely unfamiliar location not on known worlds).
If you feel that is too broad an application of RAW I will point out issues like this are covered in additional 2E books regarding the force and it's uses.
If we stick to RAW from the 2E R&R then Farseeing is no longer an available power at all - only post cognition. It was removed from the core rules during one of the rewrites. It's not even in the 2E rulebook.

An additional problem with the location option - as is a clear precedent set by the movie trilogy, the force flows through all living things and binds the galaxy together, and locations can take on aspects of the force related to those who occupy it. The new movies seem to support and build on this a great deal. So, as the rebel base is filled with rebels that do not want to be found, yes it would absolutely be able to resist and add that to the role. If the force of the persons in the base does not apply, then the location could not be found through the force at all as there is no way to see it.
As to the 100% success revealing minute detail - I only found that in the Tales of the Jedi companion, a book not everyone has access too, and that entire passage has the very important words For Example at the start so that is not even a rule, just a general guide or idea. The Last sentence right before that example additionally states that the percentages are rough guidelines of how much correct information the character receives in their vision. So clearly that is not RAW.
As to the Skill Codes of Vader and Palpatine (and any movie character), first I would point out I have always found the skills as listed for the Trilogy characters too steep. That being said - there is every indication in all available official and Expanded Universe lore that both Vader and the Emperor are at all times using multiple force powers just to keep themselves alive and functional due to injuries suffered (Die Code penalties). There is additional supporting material in official and EU material that the emperor is at all times keeping a number of other force powers up for a variety of effects - though exactly what specifics and to what ends is widely varied and some slightly incredulous except his ridiculous die codes in those powers. Much of this is not detailed in the game books as some of it was developed or commented on after the books were written, or even after WEG lost their license, with the exception of the fact Vader's injuries were horribly disfiguring and he needed to use the force to stay alive and deaden the pain - that was mentioned a few places in source materials for the game. So for both of these figures we are likely looking at some stacks of Die Code Penalty.

At this point we have greatly digressed from suggestions on how to handle force Visions to trying to debate minutia of rules though.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Darklighter79 wrote:
But let's face it: +35 a challenge for Vader?

Quote:
But there's nothing in RAW for Force Power proximity as "would likely in the same sector" and + 30 is max. Like +30 is also max for Relationship modifier.

But it's just not realistic to assume that a modifier that scales up to +20 while still in the same star system would plateau at +30 just for being outside of that star system, no matter how much further away one got. WEG understood their rule set wasn't going to cover every eventuality, and that we as players would move beyond it as needed. Proof? Read my signature. Just because WEG stopped at +30 does not mean it should be a hard cap.

Even then, you're still looking at a modifier in the +50 range, at a minimum. Considering the stellar distances involved, I'd probably ramp it up to +70 or +80.

Quote:
That's why Vader kept "molesting" Luke with Projective Telepathy in RotJ deleted scene.

Key word: deleted scene. And at that point, Luke and Vader had met face to face for a Lightsaber duel, so the Relationship Modifier had dropped.

Not only an excellent point, but RAW exists to support this in several Galaxy Guides - most Notably GG9:Fragments from the Rim which has some difficulties escalating far beyond +30 for some of the Jedi exercises in it.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
WEG understood their rule set wasn't going to cover every eventuality, and that we as players would move beyond it as needed. Proof? Read my signature. Just because WEG stopped at +30 does not mean it should be a hard cap.


I know that. Not the difficulty is what bothers me, but the overall design of this power. I think it somehow gives too much info with a high roll, whereas in movies it was more hint like if that's good way to put it. I know, know, GM word is final so of course we can adjust it accordingly. So I wanted to ask if anyone has a similar feeling.

In d20 it is described as: "you gain vague, momentary impressions of events happening around a particular being in some distant place". Fits more to what Yoda used in AotC, or Paplatine in RotJ.

Quote:
Not only an excellent point, but RAW exists to support this in several Galaxy Guides - most Notably GG9:Fragments from the Rim which has some difficulties escalating far beyond +30 for some of the Jedi exercises in it.

There are Force power description with difficulty of heroic +30 and more (like Force Storm). I am aware of that. But proximity and relationship modifiers are flat. So it's not an accurate example.
By the way: I have found expanded table for range powers in d6 space.They added in sector (nearby system) at +30. And galactic (anywhere else) at +60. There's also a different relationship table - also worth checking (bonus for close friends, penalty for strangers). Good safety device against TKK.

KageRyu wrote:
It's not even in the 2E rulebook.

Does it officially mean that all previously written Force powers are no longer valid? How can you see the future with postcogniton? How Jedi or Sith were able to sense future in prequels?

Quote:
If the force of the persons in the base does not apply, then the location could not be found through the force at all as there is no way to see it.

I would say that if he just focuses on location he will see it empty.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:


KageRyu wrote:
It's not even in the 2E rulebook.

Does it officially mean that all previously written Force powers are no longer valid? How can you see the future with postcogniton? How Jedi or Sith were able to sense future in prequels?

This isn't what I said, you are twisting my words.
You responded to my post with excerpted fragments of RAW so I countered with facts from RAW as well as more expansive ideas. If this is going to turn into strawmanning I am out.

It reminds me of why I left the board for so long.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just was not sure if there was an official statement from WEG that some Force powers are out of the system - it would be great to have their FAQ (if it exists). WotC was frequently publishing erratas and modifications.

As far as house rules, it's okay.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, can we take a step back for a minute? It looks like we're all pretty much on the same page as to the core of what we're saying, but it looks like we're getting caught up in the minutia.

I'm not totally sure where the ruffled feathers are coming from, but can we try to approach each other in this thread with somewhat gentler spirits?

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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I just was not sure if there was an official statement from WEG that some Force powers are out of the system - it would be great to have their FAQ (if it exists). WotC was frequently publishing erratas and modifications.

As far as house rules, it's okay.

To my knowledge there was no official FAQ for Powers being allowed or disallowed - but Farseeing was consciously left out of 2nd edition and 2nd revised, but then put back in in Sourcebooks for 2nd (likely due to demand as it is used in the Trilogy). It can easily be a game breaking power if not handled carefully and creatively by a game master. I do feel existing RAW can be adapted to cover most of the pitfalls that come with it, and creative application and dispersal of information by the GM can account for the rest.

For Example:
Even should you choose to use the as-written passage regarding accurate detail down to minute elements with Farseeing. As the GM, you control those elements. Most Rebel Bases are built in desolate locations, in caves, and similar according to most of what has been seen and printed in the Rebel Sourcebook. We know several animals are widely used across multiple planets by the galaxy fairing civilization. So the emperor, sitting on his throne, having an excruciatingly detailed vision of a young rebel feeding the Banthas in some dank and musty, dimly lit cave, while the lights flicker and dim because of power cords dangling from the walls with damaged insulation where Mynochs chewed on them, still wont reveal what planet it is on. Hearing the hum and whine of the bearing in the nearby fossil fuel generator that is likely 1 maintenance cycle short of burning out as it kicks thick, acrid smoke into the small chamber that the emperor can practically feel burning his nostrils, still doesn't provide him the hyperspace coordinates to the planet, or even the sector, or the system of the galaxy it is in. Although further into the vision, The Emperor learns the young rebel's name is Jax by another Rebel instructing him not to forget to unload the crates of D-17s from the transport and put them in the armory, he still is no closer to knowing where this is happening.

On the Other hand... as GM you could give the character what he wants. After all, Yoda does tell Luke where his friends are, when all Luke could determine was a city in the clouds. But, was this just the force, or was this also the relevant skills for Planetary Systems and/or Astrogation?

Perhaps, in RotJ, when we see the Emperor sitting on his throne with his eyes closed looking grumpy as Vader brings Luke in, this is what is irritating him.

There are some fan made materials, some made involving a lot of input from long weathered and seasoned GMs, about force powers and effects and suggested ways to handle some of the more problematic powers.
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