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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Raven, what would the spotter be rolling, and what against, to determine those bonuses?


The spotter uses the same skill to spot for artillery as they would to operate the artillery piece.

Raven Redstar wrote:
This is true, you could base the spotter's ability to see, interpret, and report relevant data to the fire team as being in line with the character's own (Blaster) Artillery skill, since it's likely that the skill involves being able to make the necessary calculations to achieve an effective firing solution.

In my games, if a character is operating a piece of artillery, this would fall under my Gunnery skill in Mechanical.


I posted my thoughts on what I thought the skill rolled should be. As far as against what, this would be similar to a coordination bonus, so the 31+ rolled on the spotter's check would grant at most a +12 bonus to the operator back at the artillery unit. If you look at the numbers I gave, those are the difficulty brackets from Very Easy to Heroic.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I like the idea of the spotter's roll granting a bonus to the artillery team.

Spotters Roll:
1 - 5 = +2
6 - 11 = +4
12 - 15 = +6
16 - 20 = +8
21 - 30 = +10
31+ = +12

I missed this somehow, but in the interests of consistency within my own system, I'd probably stick with the 1/3 version of the RoE Accuracy Damage rule. For every 3 points by which the spotter beats his roll, the Gunner gets a +1 bonus to Gunnery.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/3 would work out pretty close to my difficulty scale, unless you have someone rolling way above 33-36 range. I put the cap at Heroic because at some point the gunner needs to be rolling his shot without having the spotter do everything!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
1/3 would work out pretty close to my difficulty scale, unless you have someone rolling way above 33-36 range. I put the cap at Heroic because at some point the gunner needs to be rolling his shot without having the spotter do everything!

So what would the Difficulty be for the spotter? We could base spotting Difficulty around a graduated range to the target, just like a weapon...
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Spotters Roll:
1 - 5 = +2
6 - 11 = +4
12 - 15 = +6
16 - 20 = +8
21 - 30 = +10
31+ = +12


The spotter is relaying targeting data, right? The numbers above are the difficulty for spotting.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The spotter is relaying targeting data, right? The numbers above are the difficulty for spotting.

But what is the Spotter rolling against? Spotting for artillery shouldn't just be a flat roll against 0 Difficulty; this isn't something any idiot with a pulse and a radio can just pick up and do, and the further away the target is from the spotter, the harder it will be.

What I'm saying is that the spotter has to be within a certain range, with a line of sight to the target, then treat the spotting range like a weapon to determine how hard it is to determine accurate location. For unaided human eyes, let's say 500m-1km/2km/4km, with the same Difficulty levels as a weapon. then, whatever the spotter rolls over that base Difficulty translates into an accuracy bonus for the Gunner on the artillery weapon.

Having a pair of macrobinoculars and an accurate chart would add +1D to the Spotter's Gunnery roll to generate an accurate target location.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think you're over-complicating this, because in essence spotting for artillery is simply a specific that you're coordinating actions. If the spotter rolls their gunnery to feed targeting data to the artillery crew, then an imbecile with a pair of macrobinoculars giving him range (Gunnery 1D) will cap out without wild die at giving the gunner a +2 to his shot.

I wouldn't give a bonus from having macrobinoculars, but I would give a penalty. If someone is eyeballing it without any sort of equipment whatsoever, then I'd halve their gunnery skill for spotting, equating to an educated guess.

The real question is at what point will this system come into play? When I look at spotting rules for artillery, the likely thing I can see is the Player characters moving to a forward position to spot for friendly NPCs firing artillery. A great roll means that his NPC gunnery crews are going to be more likely to hit their target.

On the other hand, if it was my NPCs that are operating artillery, then I'd take an average check from the spotter: 4D = 14 = +6 to the artillery shell for hitting their target. If you're busy trying to figure out the range for the spotter, then the range for the artillery, then the roll for the spotter, then the bonus, then the attack roll... do you see where I'm going?

To be honest, it seems to me that any artillery cannon in Star Wars would be fit with some sort of sensor system that would just give a flat fire control bonus to shots fired. Roll sensors to detect the target, the computer feeds the targeting information and the shot is fired without the use or need for a spotter.

So, yes, what you're calling a base difficulty of 0 is what I'm suggesting with a sliding scale of bonus based on how skilled a spotter you have spotting.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Raven Redstar wrote:
I like the idea of the spotter's roll granting a bonus to the artillery team.

Spotters Roll:
1 - 5 = +2
6 - 11 = +4
12 - 15 = +6
16 - 20 = +8
21 - 30 = +10
31+ = +12

I missed this somehow, but in the interests of consistency within my own system, I'd probably stick with the 1/3 version of the RoE Accuracy Damage rule. For every 3 points by which the spotter beats his roll, the Gunner gets a +1 bonus to Gunnery.


So did i.. And i like the ease of it.. Use the same for spotting as you'd use to fire it..
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternatively, you could set the base difficulty for the spotter to be the artillery's range, since that is ultimately the shot that is being spotted/calculated. Which gives you standard difficulties.

Point Blank
Short
Medium
Long
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Alternatively, you could set the base difficulty for the spotter to be the artillery's range, since that is ultimately the shot that is being spotted/calculated. Which gives you standard difficulties.

Point Blank
Short
Medium
Long

Because both ranges are going to be relevant: the Spotter's range affects the Difficulty of calculating a precise location, and the Gunner's range affects how accurately the shot is fired from the cannon / missile launcher. Both ranges are going to have an effect, yet you're only allowing for one of them.

Just to be clear, the idea here is to have only one character's roll affect the accuracy - either the gunner or the spotter - based on which one is the PC. But the critical range for the spotter is not going to be based on the range of the cannon he is spotting for, but on how close he is to the target. Personally, I find it far more likely that the character will be the one spotting instead of shooting.

So, if both rolls are range-dependent, then there must be a range for the spotter, too.

So, what I suggest is this:
    1). Have a static D modifier based on whatever range is not directly affecting the PC.
      Range = Modifier to Gunnery Skill
      Point Blank = 0D
      Short = -1D
      Medium = -2D
      Long = -3D


    2). If the Player is the Spotter, he rolls his Gunnery against the following Range: 500m-1km/2km/4km, and his roll is used for accuracy. The Range modifier above is applied based on the distance from the artillery weapon to the target.

    Example: The player is spotting an AT-AT for a battery of artillery cannon (Range: 1km-3km/6km/15km). The AT-AT is 1.5 kilometers away from the spotter, which puts the Difficulty at Moderate (for Medium Range). Because he is calling in the shot by voice comm, he suffers a -4D penalty to Gunnery (-3D if he has range-finding macrobinoculars and an accurate map). However, the artillery battery is 12km from the target (Long Range), so he suffers an additional -3D penalty.

    3). If the Player is the Gunner, basing his shot off the coordinates provided by an NPC Spotter, the roles are reversed, with the Spotter's range to the target providing a -1D-3D penalty to the Gunner's roll, which is rolled against the Range Difficulty for the cannon itself.

The Spotter and Gunner may both take advantage of the Preparation rule if time allows, which is cumulative (A spotter may take an extra round to get precise calculations, and the gunner may take an extra round dialing in the gun) to a maximum of 2D to Fire Control.

In addition, Spotters may pre-calculate coordinates as part of defensive preparation. On a Moderate Tactics roll, a commander can identify locations where enemy forces will likely try to concentrate or use for cover. The spotter and artillery crew may then make precise calculations (i.e. the Preparation Rule) before battle is joined, with an additional +1D to Fire Control for the reduced time needed (rather than rattling off a string of coordinates, the spotter can simply comm the battery and say, "Target, Fire Mission Alpha-Three," and the gunnery crew swings the gun onto a bearing and elevation that has already been pre-plotted in their systems.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and the Spotter gets an additional +1D to his Gunnery roll once the first shot hits.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on. Anyone? This is the last thing I have to settle before I can sit down and write up a compiled rule for artillery use in the game. I think I've got a pretty good system, but I need people to poke holes in it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so, after 19 pages of discussion and the occasional pissing match, I think I've finally got something worth publishing.

Using Artillery in Star Wars D6

Fire Control
Ballistic Artillery presents a unique problem in a gaming session, as its most useful trait in a science-fiction setting is the ability to hit targets that it can not directly see. As such, firing an artillery weapon at targets beyond line-of-sight requires a third party to act as the gun crew's eyes.

For gaming purposes, Artillery will be used just like a line-of-sight weapon, subject to the following penalties:
    -1D to Gunnery when firing a low-velocity ballistic shot at a target that is visible to its own sensors (some artillery platforms include integrated terrain following sensors that negate Concealment provided by Terrain Features within Sensor Range). Some cannon use EM or gravitic systems and can vary the velocity of their shot; shells fired at high velocity may be fired without penalty.

    -2D to Gunnery if the Target is out of sight, but is being targeted by a remote targeting relay. Such relays commonly provide an offsetting bonus to Fire Control. For example, a TIE/fc could designate a surface target for an artillery weapon that is over the horizon from it (for a 6' / 1.8 meter human, the horizon is roughly 5 kilometers away). The cannon suffers a -2D penalty due to partial concealment, but the TIE/fc's advanced spotting systems offset that penalty and allow the cannon to fire without penalty. Such sensors are common found on reconnaissance ground vehicles and starfighters, as well as probe droids (the Viper Probe Droid in particular is commonly used by the Imperial military as a Spotter platform).

    -4D to Gunnery if the Target is out of sight, but is being targeted by a spotter using comms to relay and adjust coordinates. Use of this method is dependent on a skilled observer with access to macrobinoculars and an accurate map (penalty reduced to -3D if using range-finding equipment and precision location equipment, such as the Directional Transponder), but is complicated by the spotter's own distance to the target.
      <500 meters = +1D, but on a confirmed Wild Dice result, the artillery targets the Spotter instead of the target (see Damage below).
      500m - 1km = -0D
      >1km - 2km = -1D
      >2km - 4km = -2D

      +1D to Gunnery after the first shot impacts, as the Spotter now has a reference to adjust the fall of the shot.

      The Spotter and Gunner may both take advantage of the Preparation rule if time allows, which is cumulative (A spotter may take an extra round to get precise calculations, and the gunner may take an extra round dialing in the gun) to a maximum of 2D to Fire Control.

      In addition, Spotters may pre-calculate coordinates as part of defensive preparation. On a Moderate Tactics roll, a commander can identify locations where enemy forces will likely try to concentrate or use for cover. The spotter and artillery crew may then make precise calculations (i.e. the Preparation Rule) before battle is joined, with an additional +1D to Fire Control for the reduced time needed (rather than rattling off a string of coordinates, the spotter can simply comm the battery and say, "Target, Fire Mission Alpha-Three," and the gunnery crew swings the gun onto a bearing and elevation that has already been pre-plotted in their systems.

Other factors also affect the accuracy of Artillery:
    Moving Targets
      -1D if the Target is Moving faster than their Base Move.
      -2D if the Target is a moving Ground Vehicle (other than a Walker).

    Weather
      -1D for a Strong Wind
      -2D for a Strong, Gusting Wind
      -3D for an extremely Strong Wind (Gale or Hurricane-Force)

    Cover in the Target Area
      Forests = 1/4 Cover (-1D)
      Rough Terrain = 1/2 Cover (-2D)
      Rubble and/or Trenches & Foxholes = 3/4 Cover (-4D)
      Bunkers = Full Cover (Bunker must be attacked and destroyed to affect its occupants)

    Modern artillery units are equipped with sensors that track their artillery shells in flight, which allows them to account for deviations caused by minor conditions. This adds +1D to Fire Control beginning 1 round after the first shot.

Coordination
Firing artillery nearly always necessitates a group effort. For gaming purposes, this will be treated as a standard coordination effort, with the actual targeting and firing being decided by a single character's skill roll. However, which character is doing the rolling will differ depending on circumstances.
    NPC Gunner & Spotter Attacking PCs: Gunnery Skill rolled by NPC Gunner, subject to modifiers as described above.

    PC Gunner & NPC Spotter Attacking NPCs: Gunnery Skill rolled by PC Gunner, subject to modifiers as described above.

    PC Gunner & Spotter Attacking NPCs: Gunnery Skill rolled by PC Gunner, augmented by Gunnery skill rolled by PC Spotter (subject to the above rules for Visual Spotting) against the following chart:
      <500m = Moderate
      500m - 1km = Difficult
      >1km - 2km = Very Difficult
      >2km - 4km = Heroic

      Failure = Reduce Gunner's Skill roll by 5 for every point missed.

      Success = Increase Gunner's Skill roll by 3 for every point of success.

    NPC Gunner & PC Spotter Attacking NPCs: Gunnery Skill rolled by PC Spotter, subject to the Visual Spotting rules above, as well as the following modifiers based on the Artillery Cannon's range to the target.
      Point-Blank = +1D
      Short = 0D
      Medium = -1D
      Long = -2D


Damage & Blast Radius
Artillery is inherently inaccurate, rarely inflicting death or injury by direct impact. However, the explosive shells and missiles used for indirect fire just need to hit close enough. Whereas a direct hit can vaporize a Character-Scale target, a near miss can kill by concussive shockwave, wound with shrapnel, stun with flying debris or just knock them off their feet. Surviving a well-aimed artillery barrage is as much a matter of luck as anything else.

There is so much variation in the possible results of an artillery barrage that coming up with a realistic blast radius rule is next to impossible. However, describing the effects of artillery to the characters' surroundings is far less crucial to the plot than how the artillery affects the characters.

To represent this, use the following:
    Roll the attack as normal, using appropriate Ranged Weapon skill (factoring in Scale and Fire Control Modifiers, as described above) against the appropriate standard Reaction Skill roll. Note: This is not a normal Reaction skill use. The Reaction skill is only being used as a random number generator to determine the effects of the attack. On a Very Difficult Perception or Search roll, characters on foot may attempt a Full Dodge. Vehicles may also attempt a Full Reaction if they are equipped with Sensors to warn of incoming artillery rounds. Each character or vehicle pilot rolls separately.

    If the shot hits, roll Damage as normal

    If the shot misses, apply the Miss value to the Damage Reduction Modifier for the type of Artillery Shell fired.
      Point: (Every -1 Miss = -2D Damage) Point Blast weapons are designed to focus their energy on the point of impact; any blast effects are incidental. This includes most energy weapons, as well as bunker-buster or armor-piercing ordnance.

      Standard: (Every -1 Miss = -1D Damage) Standard Blast Weapons affect a larger area, either by design or choice. This includes most missiles and torpedoes, but also includes ion cannon blasts, as ion blasts tend to be less cohesive than standard blaster and laser bolts.

      Area: (Every -2 Miss = -1D Damage) These weapons are designed to spread their effects as wide as possible. This covers most forms of Anti-Personnel warheads.

      Other weapons, such as flare clusters or smoke and chemical delivery warheads, may have different blast radius ratios to account for their effect.

    Apply the Damage Reduction modifier to the Damage dice value (including any Scale modifiers)

    If the resulting value is 0D or less, the character / vehicle is unharmed.

    If the resulting value is 1D or more, roll Damage as normal against the affected target (in the event of a group of characters with differing Dodge roll values, this can result in some characters having to soak damage while others do not).

After the initial attack, characters may choose to dive for Cover (counts as a Full Dodge) but can not Move at the same time.

Counter-Artillery Fire

Armed vehicles may attempt to shoot down incoming artillery shells, but to do so requires a turret-mounted weapon with some form of integrated fire control (does not apply to scopes mounted on personal weapons). Shells in flight generally have a Body of 1D and are Very Difficult targets. Shells remain in the air for one round for every Range Band they must cross (1 for Short, 2 for Medium and 3 for Long), but laser or blaster cannon can only engage them once, due to range limitations. If the target detects the round in the round before it hits, the Gunner may use the Preparation rule when attempting to shoot down the incoming round.

Common Types of Artillery Shells
The other major advantage of projectile artillery is that the weapon effect can be tailored for a specific target by using different kinds of warheads. Examples include:

    Proton (Explosive)
    Damage: 7D
    Damage Reduction: Standard (Every -1 Miss = -1D Damage)

    Concussion (Bunker Buster)
    Damage: 9D
    Damage Reduction: Point (Every -1 Miss = -2D Damage)

    Cluster (Anti-Personnel)
    Damage: 3D
    Damage Reduction: Area (Every -2 Miss = -1D Damage)

    Inferno (Incendiary)
    Damage: 4D (Fire)
    Damage Reduction: Standard (Every -1 Miss = -1D Damage)

    Flare Cluster (Illumination)
    Effect: Negates up to 4D of Darkness Concealment
    Effect Reduction: Every -5 Miss = -1D to Concealment Modifier
    Duration: Lasts 6 rounds, then Effect reduces by 1D per round as flares burn out.

    Baffler (Full Spectrum Smoke)
    Effect: Provides up to 4D of Concealment against normal vision, enhanced optic systems and Sensors.
    Effect Reduction: Every -3 Miss = -1D to Concealment Modifier.
    Duration: Lasts 12 rounds, -1 to Effect per round until fully dissipated.

These rounds can be used for different size of artillery simply by changing the scale modifier: Speeder (+4D) for Mortars, Walker (+8D) for Howitzers / Heavy Cannon, or Frigate (+10D) for Artillery Rockets.

Many other types of rounds are available, ranging from Chemical Delivery rounds to Electronic Warfare Modules, Artillery-Deployed Minefields or droid delivery vehicles (deploying spotter droids, or even commando and skirmish droids). The possibilities are near-endless, and limited only by imagination and operational needs.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this, i like it alot...

Now all we need, is to stat out some common artillery pieces...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I like this, i like it alot...

Now all we need, is to stat out some common artillery pieces...

Having a decent rule set to work with was the main thing holding me back from completing my artillery variant of the AT-AA, and you have the AT-HP. I did also include the Mass Driver and Missile Launcher variants of fractalsponge's Scythe-Class when I statted it up.

I'm pretty tired at the moment, but I will put in some work on your AT-HP tomorrow to try and integrate it with this system. Then I'll bang out my AT-AA and go over the Scythe to see if anything needs changing.
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