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The Last Jedi - Thoughts and Reactions
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

It does state that in the description, but mechanically it doesn't provide any rules for actually moving beyond the character's move stat.

My thoughts exactly.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd say that's more a game mechanics oversight on WEG's part than anything else. Under the 1E Rules, where everything had a Speed Code, a dice bonus from Enhance Attribute actually meant something, but it likely slipped through the cracks with the 2E upgrade.

Right. So the one thing missing was rolling the appropriate bonus to increase movement rate.
Still there's the jumping problem I have mentioned earlier, so in my opinion the bonus should also determine the additional meters of the jump.

Kytross wrote:
Kylo Ben can FREEZE TIME!


Had he been able to do this, all the targets should be motionless. But they are not: Poe makes sounds trying to struggle, bolt is vibrating, Rey is moving her eyes and mouth in panic:
Kylo Ren Force use
It's like the expanded Force Stasis power from KOTOR.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
They wanted a cool special effect. They got it. They weren't considering continuity and the ramifications.


They never do...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Kytross wrote:
Kylo Ben can FREEZE TIME!

Had he been able to do this, all the targets should be motionless. But they are not: Poe makes sounds trying to struggle, bolt is vibrating, Rey is moving her eyes and mouth in panic:
Kylo Ren Force use

Darklighter, thanks for posting that video.

Kytross, perhaps you should watch the film again. Kylo Ren is obviously not stopping time. It is temporarily restricting kinetic motion. Blaster bolts are made of energetic particles. Rey was shooting at Ren and when he activates the power on her, her arm quickly swings down so the blaster is pointed away (more traditional telekinesis), and then she is frozen (but as mentioned her eyes and mouth are moving, and she is clearly emoting disbelief and fear because she can't move). It seems to be an extension of telekinesis. And no, not 'game terms' telekinesis, but the cinematic telekinesis that is not restriction by your rules or explanations.

Kytross wrote:
It is not background detail or a passing character. By choosing to introduce this new power the creative team is obligated to explain it to the audience. The audience doesn't need much of an explanation, a single line of dialogue would be fine, but it does need an explanation.

LOL. This has to be one of the most petty criticisms I've heard yet. How would they "explain" the power? What single line of dialogue would have worked for you? "When Ben Solo was a student at Luke's temple, he privately experimented with the Force and developed new uses of telekinesis." That?

I don't need that. When you write in objective terms about the "audience" above, please know that you do NOT speak for myself and the majority of the audience. Most of us do not need a pointless line of dialogue talking about the power. The use of the power tells the majority of us what we need to know about the power.

But please, fix the movie for yourself and share your solution with us. Please tell us what line of dialogue you would have added, to which character, and when, to "explain" this power in a satisfactory way to you? If I feel it would have improved the film in any way, I'll admit it. But if you want to watch the movie again first before giving your solution, I understand.

Kytross wrote:
They have given Kylo Ben a new force power that tips the scales of power beyond anything we've seen in Star Wars. He can freeze time itself. Imagine him using that power on an opponent in a fight. Or to stop someone who is falling. Or on Doppleganger Luke in TLJ.

Since Doppelgänger Luke was an illusion, I see no reason why the power should work on that.

Kytross wrote:
Kylo Ben can FREEZE TIME!

Huge ramifications here. Never mentioned again. Not worth bringing up. No impact on the plot whatsoever.

He froze Poe at the beginning of the film. He DID use it again, on Rey in the second act. In both cases, it stopped blaster attacks being made on Ren. HUGE impact on the plot because Ren may have been wounded and the plot may have played out differently if he had been in either of those scenes, especially if Rey had wounded him alone in the woods on Maz's planet. Another viewing for you may be in order.

Kytross wrote:
The use of the force to freeze <kinesis> is a gigantic departure from six movies worth of established continuity... They weren't considering continuity

Every new movie expands the universe and shows things that didn't exist in the films before.

In ANH, Vader overtly used the Force to choke Admiral Motti and sense Obi-Wan's presence. Obi-Wan used the mind trick on stormtroopers, and dissipated his physical self into a Force Ghost that only Luke could hear. Luke used the Force to block remote bolts and destroy the Death Star.

Then in the Wampa cave in TESB, Luke can suddenly use telekinesis with no explanation! How can the Force suddenly be used to move objects with your mind? That violated the established continuity of the rules for the Force in the original Star Wars film, didn't it? And there is no line of dialogue indicating Luke used to do that as a little kid and forgot until after he destroyed the Death Star, or even that in between films he had received some training by another Jedi who had given his life so Luke could escape. And how could Yoda raise an X-Wing out of the swamp without that being established by ANH? And how could Vader stop a blaster bolt with his hand? He never did that before, and he never did that again. There is not even a single line of dialogue in the film about it!

And how can the Emperor using the Force to shoot lightning out of his hands? Vader and Yoda never did that! The continuity established in ANH and TESB do not account for Force Lightning!

And how could Darth Maul have a double-bladed lightsaber in TPM? The continuity of the classic films clearly indicates that lightsabers are one-bladed and aren't hooked together... Do I really need to go on?

As fans, we each define our own limits and draw our on lines. We are all free to decide, "They went too far this time for my tastes." This is a personal, subjective experience. Even though every new film expanded on the prior ones, you chose to accept the first six films' continuity as the 'established rule' for what uses of the Force can be introduced without explanation. And that is where you draw the line on what your accepted parameters are.

I understand, in a way. Before TLJ, all seven prior films with Jedi in them had lightsaber duels (saber v saber). My personal standard for Star Wars films with Jedi include lightsaber duels. TLJ even had "Jedi" in the title of the film, and it still "violated" my personal "rule" because lightsabers verses other melee weapons is just not the same to me. It came up in a discussion on a Facebook Star Wars page and I mentioned my feelings on it. The page admin, likely weary of dealing with bash after bash from a very vocal minority of haters, just replied to my complaint , "First world problems." That reminded me that I am thankful for all the Star Wars I do have and enjoy. I had considered the film series done before the Disney sale, so everything after Lucas' 6-episode saga is bonus. I shouldn't take it for granted.

However, I grow weary of reading detractors expressing their own personal subjective standards as objective requirements. The difference with my standards and "violations" is that I own them as mine. I acknowledge that I am in a minority of fans who feel TLJ is their lest favorite SW film.

Kytross wrote:
That's fine. I still enjoyed the films. Quite a bit, actually

Really? If you enjoy TFA that much, you definitely should watch it again!

Kytross wrote:
You won't see issues like this in the Zahn Trilogy. Comparing the two sequels the creative people have given us, Zahn tells a tighter, better story.

I feel comparisons of the partially completed ST to the Zahn Trilogy completed in 1993 are unwarranted. They are different media types from different eras. And The Thrawn Trilogy isn't a clear victor by story standards.

I truly loved the first two books of the Thrawn Trilogy, and The Last Command up until the end. Unlike Rey who is shown with multiple flaws and emotional issues (whose awakening hasn't been fully explained yet), Mara Jade is the near-textbook Mary Sue. "Mara Sue" is an overly cliched, red haired, green eyed, young bad@ss with one single flaw, her Imperial programming that she must kill Luke Skywalker. Mara Sue was an obvious amalgamation of Luke, Han, Leia, and Vader, but I didn't care - I was entertained anyway. After satisfying her programming by defeating Luke's clone, the real Luke, Han, and Leia remained sidelined so Mara Sue could usurp Luke as the main protagonist of the climax and thus trilogy in a dramatic bait-and-switch. In the TTT, Luke was portrayed as the central hero of the story up until the end.

The ST has made no secret that the classic trinity of heroes are mentor roles. And now, Han and Luke are both dead and we know Leia won't have more than a minor role in Episode IX that they frankensteined together from unused footage from TFA and TLJ. Rey is clearly the main protagonist so there can't be any bait-and-switch from classic hero to new hero.

I was ok with Mara Sue before she suddenly displaced Luke in the climax. It was so out of nowhere. I was ok with Mara killing Luke's close so she could be cured of her programming. But the whole novel trilogy was building up to Luke taking down the evil Jedi clone. I know that a lot of fans out there don't mind the ending, but I can't see that in any way as "tight" story-wise. It's sloppy, and devious. Mara should have been the main character all along to have that ending. I probably would have been ok with it if Zahn had actually written the trilogy that way, with the classic trinity as supporting characters like in the ST. But it would have been a much different story, so it feels like he wrote a classic trinity story and then just couldn't resist having inserting his Mara Sue into the spotlight at the end. Move over trinity, here's the author's character that combines Luke, Han, Leia and Vader all into one. The ultra-mega Star Wars character!

And again, the ST isn't over yet so we don't know how it ends.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning Ren freezing Poe's blaster bolt and using the Force to shove Rey's gun arm down and hold her in place: when I saw the former, it struck me (and the rest of the audience in the theater with me) as a "Holy Sh!t!" moment. It didn't need to be explained as it was obvious that Ren was using the Force to hold the blaster bolt in place. And the first thing I thought when I saw that was "How powerful in the Force must Ren be to be able to do that?" I expect that Abrams and crew were going for exactly that effect when they put that into the movie. And it didn't strike me as "freezing time" since the blaster bolt is obviously skittering/vibrating in place. I thought that it wasn't telekinesis per se (since that is holding still and/or moving matter and I thought blaster bolts were essentially made out of energy, so rather than this being an example of telekinesis ("movement at a distance"), it's essentially telenergia ("energy at a distance") instead. (And yes, I just made that word up though it might actually be a real word in Greek and/or Italian since there's a European electrical utilities company actually named Telenergia. Go figure.)

But yeah, it's made clear to the audience right off that Ren is a very powerful Force user. It doesn't even need a throwaway line to explain that point. Whill's right: new Force powers have been introduced in nearly every movie, so it didn't break the suspension of disbelief here.

*cough* Now, Starkiller Base on the other hand... *cough*
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Kytross, perhaps you should watch the film again. Kylo Ren is obviously not stopping time. It is temporarily restricting kinetic motion. Blaster bolts are made of energetic particles. Rey was shooting at Ren and when he activates the power on her, her arm quickly swings down so the blaster is pointed away (more traditional telekinesis), and then she is frozen (but as mentioned her eyes and mouth are moving, and she is clearly emoting disbelief and fear because she can't move). It seems to be an extension of telekinesis. And no, not 'game terms' telekinesis, but the cinematic telekinesis that is not restriction by your rules or explanations.


Seeing how Dooku, held Obi and Anakin the same way in ATOC, it seems fitting TK can hold someone motionless..
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

Seeing how Dooku, held Obi and Anakin the same way in ATOC, it seems fitting TK can hold someone motionless..


I think the issue people have is that when he relaxes his control over it, the bolt resumes its forward motion.

If he stopped a bullet in midair with the force no one would think anything of it. It's the same as levitating any other moving object. But the blaster bolt resuming forward motion, and not burning itself out in the meantime, is what people are getting at I think.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
garhkal wrote:

Seeing how Dooku, held Obi and Anakin the same way in ATOC, it seems fitting TK can hold someone motionless..


I think the issue people have is that when he relaxes his control over it, the bolt resumes its forward motion.

If he stopped a bullet in midair with the force no one would think anything of it. It's the same as levitating any other moving object. But the blaster bolt resuming forward motion, and not burning itself out in the meantime, is what people are getting at I think.


But blaster bolts don't have mass, do they? Why wouldn't it continue its forward motion? It's not like gravity can affect it. It just seems a simple continuation of Newton's First Law of Motion: An object will remain at rest (or in motion) unless acted upon by an outside force. Remove the force/Force holding the blaster bolt in place and it will resume its forward motion, right? And the blaster bolt was vibrating in place, which means that it still had a bunch of kinetic energy remaining even after Ren used the Force to hold it in place. Having the bolt resume its forward motion makes alot more sense to me than it simply falling to the ground like the bullets shot at Neo in The Matrix.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's more that since the bolt was held so long, it's forward kinetic motion was 'bled down'.. Ergo why would it have continued forward. BUT remember when we saw it, it seemed to 'shimmer' like it was still trying to move.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
But blaster bolts don't have mass, do they?

We don't know; it depends what a blaster actually is. If it's a laser beam of some type (which the on-screen physics would seem to discount), then no. However, if it's a particle beam or plasma weapon of some type (which is what Wookieepedia says), then yes, they do. Ultimately, though, the physics of blasters don't really fit cleanly with any "real" energy type. In some scenes, blaster bolts appear to have velocities similar to real-world projectiles, while in others, they seem to be much slower, likely due to special effects choices.

Freezing a person is more believable, as it is effectively an inverse of Telekinesis; rather than imparting movement to a non-moving object, the power user is imposing immobility on an already moving object.

While I'm not entirely comfortable with the physics behind the energy bolt side of this, that bothers me less than the contradiction it presents about Kylo Ren's relative power level. The ability to suspend a blaster bolt for a minute or more while retaining its relative velocity within that suspension would indicate a high level of power, yet he seems relatively weak by the end of the film.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

But blaster bolts don't have mass, do they?


In D6 they do. They're a super heated gas. It doesn't make real-world physics sense necessarily, but that's how it is in D6 books.

The gas should continue burning and go away. Even if not, Ren should have to actively fling it forward again with the force.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylo Ben is relatively weak by the end, after taking a Bowcaster blast in the torso. Wookiee Bowcasters will do that to you!

Also, he was "torn apart" by his internal conflict. He could have also been suffering from some psychological effect from his father's death, on top of the Bowcaster blast.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wounded. -1D to all skill rolls. It shouldn’t effect his performance that much.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wounded. -1D to all skill rolls. It shouldn’t effect his performance that much.

The film world doesn't operate according to our game rules. The wound is as severe and debilitating as the creators want it to be. Seeing how powerful the the same Bowcaster's blasts were shown to be earlier in the same film, it probably took a lot of Force power just to stay conscious.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or it could just be crappy storytelling where the director's "oh, THIS would look cool" takes precedence over continuity, but what do I know?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wounded. -1D to all skill rolls. It shouldn’t effect his performance that much.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Or it could just be crappy storytelling where the director's "oh, THIS would look cool" takes precedence over continuity, but what do I know?

There he is. I thought we had lost you to the Matrix. You ok?
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