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Search Your Feelings, You Know It To Be True...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Search Your Feelings, You Know It To Be True... Reply with quote

On the surface, much of the in-fight dialogue of lightsaber battles is overly simplistic, largely variations on a theme of "the Dark Side is stronger." "No, the Light Side is stronger." "I know you are but what am I?" There is little or nothing in the way of the witty repartee that one might expect of a duel; in many ways, the atypically silent battle between Obi-wan/Qui-gon and Darth Maul felt more realistic because almost nothing was said by any of the combatants until battle was joined.

I'm certain there must be more to it, and I think the strongest evidence is in the climax of Empire Strikes Back. Consider for a moment how any of us might react if an enemy told us something so seemingly ridiculous as "I am your father." At the very least, our response would likely be something along the lines of "yeah, right." And yet, when Vader tells Luke "search your feelings; you know it to be true," that's exactly what happens. Somehow, Luke knows it's true, and reacts accordingly.

This suggests that, somehow, Force Sensitives can sense whether or not a statement is true or false, simply by how it "feels." It is, I think, an easy thing to miss, as the primary medium of the SWU is visual and auditory. We, the audience, can not feel the Force as the characters do, and must assume its presence and the layers of interplay between battling Force Sensitives that must exist within the story.

So exactly what form should this take in the game? I think the Moment of Doubt mechanic covers a certain aspect of it, but should there be more? Should there be a Force Power called Sense Truth? If so, how difficult should it be, and what would be some realistic limitations?
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Pel
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible Force users communicate on multiple levels too. Maybe Vader and Luke were sharing a bit of telepathy on a subconscious level (made easier because of their familial relationship) and when Vader let loose that particular torpedo of truth, Luke instantly realized its veracity.

Outside of that, maybe the midichlorians turn the user's aura a different color when they're lying or perhaps the Force energy lines around them are slightly disrupted.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it is less about finding truth in general and more about paying attention to the instincts that are telling him he is in the presence of a close family member. But without the force, one might ignore or not pay attention to those illogical instincts.

For instance Luke tells Leia she is his sister. She replies, bewildered;
"I know....somehow I've always known."
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's more to it. How many times are Jedi told to trust their feelings? Stretch out with your feelings? Feelings, feelings, feelings. Why would it just be about knowing who your blood relatives are?
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think there's more to it. How many times are Jedi told to trust their feelings? Stretch out with your feelings? Feelings, feelings, feelings. Why would it just be about knowing who your blood relatives are?


I wouldn't say it was just about knowing blood relatives.

Feelings are a way to describe any paranatural way of knowing something you otherwise have no facts about. When the force communicates with you....it's in your feelings. That sense outside of your other senses.

It's like saying "Search your senses that are not your regular senses."

In that respect it's the way the force tells you...anything that it tells you, since the force doesn't usually speak in dialogue. Though mental visions are another way it seems the Force can communicate.

Feel where the training remote is. Feel which path to take. Feel where your enemies are. Feel that your father is on that ship.

'I *felt* a great disturbance in the Force...'

Feeling who your relatives are is just one of many.

Feel what is factually true and factually false is possibly one of the things the force might let you feel;

But in my opinion, that was not the context of Darth Vader's statement.
I don't think it was 'Use the force to see if I am lying to you.'

It was 'Use the force to understand your connection to me.'
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:


It was 'Use the force to understand your connection to me.'


Agreed.

From an RPG perspective, there is also the possibility of a failed roll: what if Luke had failed his (presumably) sense roll to intuit the connection? Then he would not have believed Vader.

It may come down to something like this:

Vader: Luke... the sky is blue!

Luke: No! That's impossible!

Vader: Look and see (that is, use your senses), you'll find it to be true.

In any case, to me all the dialog about "stretch out with your feelings," etc.... equates in RPG terms to "make a sense roll." As for which force power it would be, not entirely sure... perhaps some rudimentary/primordial mishmash of post-cognition, life detection, sense path and maybe one or two others....
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you are both focusing on a single example. The other group of examples - absolute statements made during lightsaber combat - also appear to carry some degree of weight. For the Sith, this is their Dun Moch power, using Force-inspired knowledge to undermine the Force abilities of their opponents. For Jedi, there seems to be a mirror image, making seemingly simplistic statements that carry the weight of absolute truth.
    "When I left you, I was but a learner; now I am the master."

    "Only a master of evil, Darth."
For this to carry over for something like the Moment of Doubt mechanic, there must be a broader ability of Jedi to sense the truth of a statement. It wouldn't be outside the ability of the Force to provide a basic form of Farseeing that provides a basic sense of whether or not a statement is true or false.

Obviously, it won't be perfect, especially for events that haven't yet happened...
    "Will they die?"

    "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."
but things in the past that have already occured are fixed and immutable (see the Postcognition power).
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But you are both focusing on a single example. The other group of examples - absolute statements made during lightsaber combat - also appear to carry some degree of weight. For the Sith, this is their Dun Moch power, using Force-inspired knowledge to undermine the Force abilities of their opponents. For Jedi, there seems to be a mirror image, making seemingly simplistic statements that carry the weight of absolute truth.
    "When I left you, I was but a learner; now I am the master."

    "Only a master of evil, Darth."
For this to carry over for something like the Moment of Doubt mechanic, there must be a broader ability of Jedi to sense the truth of a statement. It wouldn't be outside the ability of the Force to provide a basic form of Farseeing that provides a basic sense of whether or not a statement is true or false.

Obviously, it won't be perfect, especially for events that haven't yet happened...
    "Will they die?"

    "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."
but things in the past that have already occured are fixed and immutable (see the Postcognition power).


I feel like you missed this part of my post:

Naaman wrote:
As for which force power it would be, not entirely sure... perhaps some rudimentary/primordial mishmash of post-cognition, life detection, sense path and maybe one or two others....


You could give the character a sense roll (or, perhaps willpower, depending on the circumstances) to overcome the Dun Moch or else see through it. But, in that case, you would need to impose some kind of penalty on the opponent of a character who successfully uses Dun Moch. So you'd need a rule for that if we want a rule for "search your feelings" to have any value in LSC.

On the other hand, knowing whether something is "already true" can be resolved with post-cognition, IMO.

In terms of confirming a relationship, the Life Bond force power may offer some insight into how that could work (perhaps it could be a subconscious connection that is innate between family members, whether they want it to be or not: the more closely related, the stronger the "sense" of connection. Whereas with non-blood relations, such as a spouse or close friend, the bond is established over time).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Postcognition is a bit too specific for this. This, IMO, is more along the lines of recognizing truth based solely on whether or not it "feels" right. The character can't go fishing for information, such as listing off a bunch of planets where a Rebel base might be found and picking the right one because it is right, but would be able to, if told that the Rebel base was on planet X, know whether or not it really was a Rebel base.

This could be the power Vader used in the first Executor bridge scene in ESB. Notice how all he had to do was see the visual from the probe droid of the power generator on Hoth and he was absolutely certain that that was where the Rebel base was? He couldn't guess Hoth, but once he had a bit of evidence pointing to Hoth, he could "trust his feelings" that it was the right choice.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I get it. To me, it just seems like generic "sense." (Not saying that D6 accommodates such a notion, but this is the kind of thing, to me, falls into the "hokey religion" aspects of the force: trusting your "feelings" and such).

You don't "know" that there are 3 people around the corner, but having "stretched out with your feelings" via the life detection force power, you are certain that there are three people around the corner.

I guess you'd need to come up with a name for the power, a difficulty scale, and assign prerequisites.

Alternatively, it could be one of the event-triggered uses of farseeing (something happens, and the GM tells the player, "roll farseeing" and with a sufficient roll, the character receives free information).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To an extent, this comes from the Force Skills not being skills attached to an attribute that does things. "Sense", in and of itself, doesn't do anything... it simply provides access to powers. A theoretical person with 11D in Sense but no Sense Powers can do nothing with his Sense. Someone with an 11D Strength but no Strength skills can do things with raw strength... things which are improved by skills, sure, but the skills are measurements of improvement upon talents in the way powers are not.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you get a lot of characters with 11D in Sense that haven't learned any Force powers? I don't recall off-hand if the RAW allows a character to learn Force powers without a teacher while paying the double CP cost and double training time, but being able to learn new powers through the guidance of the Force alone would seem to fall in line with the give and take of "partially controls your actions but also obeys your commands." A vision of the future might, for example, show a PC a glimpse of the future in which he uses a power he does not know, which in turn allows him to pursue the goal of learning that power as he improves his Force skills.[/i]
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Pel
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Do you get a lot of characters with 11D in Sense that haven't learned any Force powers?


Heh. What would be the point of that? I could see saving CPs to boost an Attribute because you still get all the unmodified skills with it, but the utility of the Force Skills reside entirely with their selected powers. Pretty sure there's not much unskilled Force use, short of substituting one power for another with a good explanation.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are placing a lot of unnecessary weight on Hollywood cinematic storytelling. What does it matter what the dice mechanics are? Vader had a purpose in his dialogue with Luke in their duel, which had nothing to do with actually duelling him. Vader's purpose (dare I say, his "motivation" in Hollywood terms) was to TURN Luke to the Dark Side, not to beat him. To SAVE him (for his own side).

When you take away that VERY specific motivation for that example of dialogue, there is no need to "roll to believe". It's just a duel between (presumably) two powerful icons in the war between light and dark. As an example of this, let's look at the duel between Dooku and Yoda in the Attack of the Clones. What were they talking about?

"Stop what you are doing"
"No"
"Very well." BLAP.
BLAP.
"I see your Kung Fu is as good as mine. We must therefore settle this with our Swords! Ha Ya!"
"Ho! Ha! Dodge! Turn! Parry! Spin! More spinning!"

If you are going to infuse every lightsaber duel with anything more than a high-class "surrender to me or die" gambit, then trust me, that will end up cheapening every action sequence you have in your games, and the players will no longer buy into the stakes you are trying to sell. The "I am your real father" cliche will not play more than once. If you really want to play it that once, don't BOTHER with whether the dice say the player ought to believe the GM.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're missing my point. The idea is that there are multiple examples in-universe that point to Jedi having a certain degree of intuitive knowledge. Not just in pivotal lightsaber battles, but in other instances, as well.
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