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Mystery Ships in the Original Trilogy
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If you like, i can give that tanker a try..

Knock yourself out. It looks oddly like the Shuttle from the original Battlestar Galactica, with a rocket booster and two massive fuel tanks added, so I doubt it's that big...
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Pel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If memory serves (and it's been a while) the Jedi novel mentioned the fleet makeup as it massed around Sullust. Why would the Rebels bring tankers to Endor? You're not going to gas up mid-battle. That's just asking for trouble.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, some sources list Sullust rather far from Endor, so perhaps they needed a mid jump tank up??
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
If memory serves (and it's been a while) the Jedi novel mentioned the fleet makeup as it massed around Sullust. Why would the Rebels bring tankers to Endor? You're not going to gas up mid-battle. That's just asking for trouble.
garhkal wrote:
Well, some sources list Sullust rather far from Endor, so perhaps they needed a mid jump tank up??

No one said the Rebel Fleet brought tankers to Endor. The tankers referenced above were in the Rebel Fleet at the end of TESB.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Pel wrote:
If memory serves (and it's been a while) the Jedi novel mentioned the fleet makeup as it massed around Sullust. Why would the Rebels bring tankers to Endor? You're not going to gas up mid-battle. That's just asking for trouble.
garhkal wrote:
Well, some sources list Sullust rather far from Endor, so perhaps they needed a mid jump tank up??

No one said the Rebel Fleet brought tankers to Endor. The tankers referenced above were in the Rebel Fleet at the end of TESB.

I refer you to my post from the previous page...
CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's the quote from the RotJ novel as to the ships making up the Rebel Fleet...
    In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-Wing, Y-Wing and A-Wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars.
Maybe the Sullustan ship could be an Alderaanian Gunship...

Tankers, repair ships, ammunition haulers, etc, are part of what's known in the real world (as of World War II, at least) as the Fleet Train, which is generally near the fleet while in combat but, if possible, out of the actual battle zone.

Based on various points made in other topics, I think the entire Rebel Fleet formed up near Sullust, including the main combatants, all their escorting warships and the various support auxiliaries of the fleet train. Then, they all jumped en masse to some location in deep space near Endor. At this point, all the fighters launched preparatory to the combat jump in to Endor, and all the capital ships and starfighters then jumped to hyperspace, leaving behind the fleet train with a small escorting force. This force would, in all likelihood, relocate to a third, pre-planned rendezvous point somewhere nearby (to avoid the Imperial Navy backtracking the Alliance Fleet's hyperspace course and taking them out)

The plan from there would be, 1) if the Rebels won at Endor, the fleet train would jump in to rejoin the fleet, providing the inevitable repair, medical and search & rescue support needed to mop up after the battle, or 2) if the Rebels lost (or succeeded in taking out the Death Star, but lacked sufficient strength to hold Endor against the Imperial Navy), all surviving units would jump out to the pre-planned alternate rendezvous point with the fleet train.

Typically, medical ships (ala the Medical Frigate) would be considered part of the fleet train, too, but my theory is that the Medical variant of the Nebulon B is more of a combat search & rescue / trauma frigate, designed to recover pilots or ship crew who've ejected or been blown overboard by combat damage (this would be a necessity for the Alliance, as they would very rarely be in control of a battlefield after the fact, and would thus need to rescue any stranded personnel during the battle, not after).
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pel
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

No one said the Rebel Fleet brought tankers to Endor. The tankers referenced above were in the Rebel Fleet at the end of TESB.


Oh, um, yeah. Said so right at the top of the post. I can only blame the super cool model pics and my own advancing age.

Shapeways is a very dangerous site for my bank account. Tons of neat stuff.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. I looked at the RotJ video clip and replied at the beginning of the thread. I thought we were now talking about the 3D model the guy made of the tanker, and the sharing of that here referred to the Fleet at the end of the TESB. My bad.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I found a couple more on the Mel's Miniatures page that are actually mystery ships from the end of Empire Strikes Back...
...
And the Rebel Fuel Tanker


Both can be seen in this video clip at 0:02 mark. The Tanker is directly below the Millennium Falcon (docked on the Nebulon B), and the MC19 is just above and to the right of the Nebulon's stern.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changed the title to reflect the expansion of this topic to cover ships from both ESB and RotJ.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's the quote from the RotJ novel as to the ships making up the Rebel Fleet...
    In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-Wing, Y-Wing and A-Wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars.
Maybe the Sullustan ship could be an Alderaanian Gunship...

So, I've been deliberately avoiding working on this because I needed to wrap up my article for the next issue of the Adventurers' Journal. Now that that's done, I've been putting some thoughts into the ships on the first page. What I'm leaning towards is using the above images to fill in some of the gaps in the canon for ships mentioned in the RotJ novel as being part of the Rebel Fleet "massing near Sullust" pre-Battle of Endor.

In particular, I'm focusing on the "Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships" section. Here's what I'm thinking:
    1). Making the "Rebel Tanker" a Sullustan Cargo Freighter. Specifically, it will be more like a space-going semi-truck with a crew section and a powerful engine, designed to transport a variety of different large cargo modules that can be attached to either side. They can be bulk tanks hauling fuel, ore or foodstuffs, or any of a variety of different cargo containers. The freighter will also have a tractor beam projector on either side that is used to stabilize the cargo pods in flight, but can also be used for towing and/or recovery if no pods are attached.

    2). Making the MC-19 Light Freighter a Calamarian Tanker. I was mulling over the odd design of the ship - with the cockpit far out on one end of a wing spur, and it occured to me that one possible reason for that placement is crew survivability in the event of an accident. Suppose the ship is entirely built around the handling and transportation of hazardous and/or explosive cargo, and that the cockpit module can quickly detach from the main body of the ship and serve as a self-contained escape vehicle, complete with its own hyperdrive. Which could also be weaponized...

    3). Making the "Sullustan Dreadnaught" the Alderaanian Gunship. I'm somewhat on the fence here, as I've always wanted to flesh out the Rendili Stardrive ship roster, and this ship bears a bit of resemblance to the nose end on the Dreadnaught heavy cruiser, so I may not make it an actual home-built Alderaanian ship. I could easily see this originally marketed as a fast escort ship paired up with Dreadnaught cruisers providing the heavy backup firepower, then subsequently marketed to system defense forces (including Alderaan) as a patrol & defense platform, with Alderaan's ships joining up with the Alliance subsequent to the planet's destruction.

    4). Finally, I'm leaning strongly toward playing a bit of a shell-game with the MC20 MonCal Corvette and the MC30c Frigate from the Armada tabletop game. A little backstory on this one: a while back, I decided to use some of the Mcquarrie concept art from the RotJ Artbook to flesh out the "big Corellian ships" mentioned by Han Solo in ANH. Within a matter of weeks, it was pointed out to me that the art I had used for the Valiant-Class Heavy Cruiser had also been used by Armada for their MC30-Class Frigate. Begrudgingly, I tried to work around the conflict and find new artwork to use for my big Corellian ship, but I never found anything that truly sat well with me. This was compounded by the feel that the MC30 - much like the MC75 seen in RO - looked nothing like the official Mon Cal cruisers. While I like the concept of the MC30 as described in its write-up, the art just doesn't feel like it fits.

    What I'm thinking of doing is using the MC20 Corvette model as the new visual for the MC30, because it just looks and feels like more of a match to that ship. The MC30 is supposed to be either a scout or torpedo attack boat, very fast, with the main weakness of low hull strength. The MC20 model looks sleek and speedy, but also looks like it would snap in half if you gave it a mean look. Doing this would free up (in my own headcanon, at least) the artwork for the MC30 to be used as I had originally planned - the Corellian Valiant-Class Heavy Cruiser.
Thoughts?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How cool would it have been if the designers of Rebels had used one of these ships as the design for the Ghost?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
How cool would it have been if the designers of Rebels had used one of these ships as the design for the Ghost?

I rather like Ghost for what it is. Some of the interior design choices from the series are a little weird, but on the whole, Ghost is alright. Most of these ships work well as background filler, but don't really say "hero ship" to me.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently I wasn't the only one who was thinking along these lines. EC Henry apparently got a look at the original models, and while he was unable to take photos, he was allowed to make sketches and craft his own models based on what he remembered.

Here's the video where he shows the results. Of the four on the first page, he covers the Tanker, the "Sullustan Dreadnaught" and the Mon Cal Corvette.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upon reflection, I'm really way more inspired by the EC Henry versions. His version of the tanker isn't all that far off from what's already posted here, but it seems from his commentary that he actually had access to the models used on-screen for RotJ and has based his versions on them. His version of the "Sullustan Dreadnought" seems to be a really good fit for the Kesselian Blockade Runner mentioned in the RotJ novel; the back 1/3 of the ship is all engine, so making it a very fast ship wouldn't be amiss. Might be fun to throw in some of the stuff from the Blockade Runner's Guide when fleshing it out...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Telsij
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew — after Hisham brought the EC Henry video to my attention via fb, I was hoping that starship peeps here at the Rancor Pit had begun looking into them already. Should have known CRMcNeill was already on the case!

Agreed re: the EC Henry extrapolations — with approximate ship lengths, suggested functions, etc — being quite well done. Likewise a bit more inspired by those takes on them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let's give this a shot...

And before you try to remind me, I am completely aware that the official MC30 is not this ship. I've never thought that the MC30 really fit as a Mon Cal ship (it has too many sharp edges and too few random bulges), but I've always been at a loss as to what it should look like until I saw this ship.

MC30-Class Assault Frigate

Image in video here.

The MC30 is one of the more powerful mid-sized frigate classes in existence. Fast, agile and heavily armed, it can successfully engage and destroy cruisers and even some destroyers. In addition, it is equipped with a very sensitive comm-scan array and stealth shields that allow it to serve as a scout or reconnaissance platform.

The MC30's only real drawbacks are its lack of fighter capacity and its comparatively weak armor. While it is equipped with the same potent shield systems as its larger Mon Cal siblings, the frigate is quite fragile, and can easily be destroyed if it is subjected to heavy concentrated firepower. Its lack of a starfighter complement also renders it somewhat vulnerable to enemy starfighters, although the ship is equipped with an array of dual laser cannon backed up by a handful of cluster traps. Indeed, the frigate can actually outrun TIE Bombers, which are the only Imperial TIE wih enough ordnance capacity to truly threaten the ship.

The MC30 is generally used as either a fleet picket, providing advanced scouting for larger Alliance vessels, or as a raider or fast attack platform, working on its own or in small groups to attack merchant shipping or vulnerable naval vessels.

Craft: Mon Calamari MC30c-Class
Type: Assault Frigate
Scale: Frigate (+10D)
Length: 250 meters
Crew: 328 (150 @ +10) & 62 Gunners
Crew Skill:*
Astrogation 4D
Gunnery 5D
Piloting 5D+2
Shields 5D
Sensors 3D+1
*Mon Cal vessels are configured to provide Mon Calamari with their +1D bonus for being in moist environments. This bonus in addition to the skills levels listed.
Passengers: 60 (generally a platoon of boarding troops)
Small Craft Complement: 2-4 utility craft
Cargo Capacity: 500 metric tons
Consumables: 1 year
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x15
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 2D+1
Space: 7
Atmosphere: 350; 1,000 kph
Hull: 2D+2
Shields: 2D Stealth Shields (2D Backup)
Sensors:
Passive 80/1D
Scan 120/2D
Search 200/3D
Focus 10/4D
Weapons:
16 Dual Turbolaser Cannon
Fire Arc: 2 Front, 6 Left, 6 Right, 2 Rear
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Range:
--Space: 2-10/25/50
--Orbital: 4km-20km/50km/100km
--Atmosphere: 200m-1km/2.5km/5km
Rate of Fire: 1
Damage: 5D
16 Dual Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: 4 Front, 4 Left, 4 Right, 4 Rear
Scale: Starship (+6D)
Crew: 1
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Range:
--Space: 1-3/12/25
--Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
--Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 5D
2 Heavy Proton Torpedo Tubes (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Scale: Destroyer (+12D)
Crew: 4
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Range:
--Space: 1-6/15/30
--Orbital: 2km-12km/30km/60km
--Atmosphere: 100m-600m/1.5km/3km
Rate of Fire: 1/4
Damage: 9D
Ammo: 40 torpedoes in a central magazine
2 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 1 Front/Left, 1 Front/Right
Scale: Special*
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Range:
--Space: 1-3/10/20
--Orbital: 2km-6km/20km/40km
--Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1km/2km
Rate of Fire: 1 (Full Round)
Damage: 4D
*May switch between Frigate (+10D) and Starship (+6D). Switch takes one round, during which the projector can not be used.
6 Cluster Traps
Fire Arc: 1 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 1 Rear
Crew: 1 (automated; controlled from ship's bridge)
Scale: Starship (+6D)
Fire Control: 4D
Range: 0-2
Damage: 6D
Game Use: When fired, a Cluster Trap affects all potential targets within range, with a base Difficulty of Easy or the target's Piloting roll. If a target takes damage, make one additional damage roll for every 5 points by which the trap beat the target's Difficulty.
Ammo: 1 each; once a cluster trap has been fired, it must be replaced before it can be used again.
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