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Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond...
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CRMcNeill
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm not at all invested in TotJ, so if I even need a ship or something from any era in the Old Republic, I just crack open the TotJ Sourcebook and repurpose stuff because I deal with pre-film history vaguely...

Me either. I basically just treat TotJ as a Jedi Sourcebook, and very little else. The closest I get to an exception is Fractalsponge's WTF-Wing, which would be really awesome as a PC ship.

Quote:
I was never a part of the old 90s email list you've mentioned, but I wonder if some of that fan material ever made it on the old internet. I don't know if I ever saw this "tech scale modifier" but that is exactly the way I've done it when it (rarely) has come up in my game. This is a simple solution. I do wonder what the Rancor Pit stat doc converters would say about the Prequel stats they've done?

Some of it did; the site runner also maintained an archive, but the only stuff that made it there had to be manually input by the individual creators, so a lot of material that was merely discussed in passing is long gone. What is there is jumbled up in the stat archive that wildfire posted a while back. This was the same page where the Gamblers & Scoundrels GG was discovered, so it's likely that the treasure trove got lost in the shuffle. I do distinctly recall a guy who went by the handle of Armage Bedar - and was literally called "The STATS Man" - genned up a lot of homebrew stats for prequel characters and the like, and that stuff is all in there. The stuff specific to the AOL Listserv mailing list is in the folder titled 'resource pool.'

I'm pretty sure this idea isn't in there, though. I recall being initially interested in it, but ultimately found it was simpler for the purposes of my own headcanon to not bother with other eras at all, and to just focus on stats for the Classic Era, using the prequels for expansion material.
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Pel
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Joined: 10 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I do distinctly recall a guy who went by the handle of Armage Bedar


That's a name I've not heard in a long time...

You're right, he statted everything. No idea what happened to him, but hopefully he's well.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I do distinctly recall a guy who went by the handle of Armage Bedar


That's a name I've not heard in a long time...

You're right, he statted everything. No idea what happened to him, but hopefully he's well.

IIRC, he was one of the guys who started up the SWRPG Network. That was right around the time WotC released their SWD20 and the D6 Mailing List turned into a ghost town.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, he was one of the guys who started up the SWRPG Network. That was right around the time WotC released their SWD20 and the D6 Mailing List turned into a ghost town.
The moderator for the D6 Mailing List was running a SWD20 game which probably grabbed some of her available attention for and interest in D6.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, he was one of the guys who started up the SWRPG Network. That was right around the time WotC released their SWD20 and the D6 Mailing List turned into a ghost town.
The moderator for the D6 Mailing List was running a SWD20 game which probably grabbed some of her available attention for and interest in D6.

I recall her being mostly in the background, though. She was around, and enforced the rules, but she was never one of the biggest contributors. But I distinctly recall that my Inbox used to be regularly flooded with e-mail from the list, and when D20 came out, it was like someone flipped a switch and traffic dropped to almost nothing.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I recall her being mostly in the background, though. She was around, and enforced the rules, but she was never one of the biggest contributors. But I distinctly recall that my Inbox used to be regularly flooded with e-mail from the list, and when D20 came out, it was like someone flipped a switch and traffic dropped to almost nothing.
Her activity as a moderator varies and seemed to decrease over time. But I think she hosted the list, so if her interest or ability to do that decreased or waned the list may have stopped functioning.

My recollection of all that is a bit fuzzy. It's been decades since I received or accessed the listserv and about 2 decades since I was last saw Jae.
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Murderbot
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Joined: 27 Mar 2020
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Deep Time and the Republic Reply with quote

Hello everyone this is my first post, but this thread is why I registered.

I guess the reason the 25k years of republic and the stagnation of tech works for me is the presence of the Jedi, who seem almost reactionary and likely to help keep things constant, the prevalence of interchangeable information technology and the lack of need.
I’m a Paleolithic archaeologist and as far we can tell, prior to agriculture, technology changed very, very slowly over tens of thousands of years, largely because what they had worked perfectly well for their environment.
Agriculture started out because the forager lifestyle suddenly became untenable.
Even after agriculture, there are places where tech changed really slowly like Egypt which changed culturally (but was almost universally illetrate too, so there was no hard code available to reference).
China in many ways actively discouraged change for a very, very long time.
Another thing i think about is the necessity of compatible technology in such a widespread civilization. If your droids and ships suddenly change up, you’re hosed when you’re a long way from home and you need to interface with local computers or get parts for your ship- that and the new technology would spread very slowly given the distances involved. It’s almost harder to believe that tech would be so compatible over such a vast volume of space to begin with.
The final reason, is that deep time really gets my imagination going.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I think about in terms of games where long life spans are the norm is how longevity can be a conservative factor. Not always, but "We have always done things this way" can be a big factor, especially if your aged and more conservative members are engaged in teaching the younger generations.... Grandpa Jim taught the grandkids the way to do it, because the parents were working, and Grandpa Jim learned it from HIS Grandpa Chester, who had it from his Grandpa Manlove (actually the name of my great*x grandfather)... there will be adaptations, where Jim adds the variations he learned in his experience, but it's going to be a conservative factor, barring significant changes in how the world works.

When you throw in a well-adapted technology (i.e. where there's not much NEED to innovate), a huge population, and it can be difficult to overcome societal inertia.
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Murderbot
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely, and you’ve got guys like yoda hanging out. They live like a thousand years!
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murderbot wrote:
Definitely, and you’ve got guys like yoda hanging out. They live like a thousand years!


Consider also droids. With regular maintenance or parts replacement (even hardware transfers), they can live centuries. And they do a lot of training. N-4N-1 raised me, she raised my father and his father, and she's raising my son. Now, she's going upgrade a bit as years go by... we take her out of mothballs with each new generation... but she's still going to act as a conservative function on at least that portion of society.
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“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Deep Time and the Republic Reply with quote

Murderbot wrote:
Hello everyone this is my first post, but this thread is why I registered.

I guess the reason the 25k years of republic and the stagnation of tech works for me is the presence of the Jedi, who seem almost reactionary and likely to help keep things constant, the prevalence of interchangeable information technology and the lack of need.
I’m a Paleolithic archaeologist and as far we can tell, prior to agriculture, technology changed very, very slowly over tens of thousands of years, largely because what they had worked perfectly well for their environment.
Agriculture started out because the forager lifestyle suddenly became untenable.
Even after agriculture, there are places where tech changed really slowly like Egypt which changed culturally (but was almost universally illetrate too, so there was no hard code available to reference).
China in many ways actively discouraged change for a very, very long time.
Another thing i think about is the necessity of compatible technology in such a widespread civilization. If your droids and ships suddenly change up, you’re hosed when you’re a long way from home and you need to interface with local computers or get parts for your ship- that and the new technology would spread very slowly given the distances involved. It’s almost harder to believe that tech would be so compatible over such a vast volume of space to begin with.
The final reason, is that deep time really gets my imagination going.

Welcome to the Rancor Pit! Great first post. The galactic scale technological compatibility is a good rational for technology not advancing so much over the deep time of the Old Republic. I would think that another big factor would be the history of war in the galaxy. On Earth, wars tend to spur technological advances as the sides push to gain advantages. Most of the millennia of the SWU were periods of peace in most of the galaxy. Of course Star Wars stories are mostly going to deal with the periods of war.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the Pit, Murderbot.

I figuresd that the tech in star wars seesm to be advancing slowly as I have indicated in my inital thread, however as a amateur historian I can easiely see the pre agriculture slwo tech advancement.

Now we could say this too about the bronze to iron age as well, where the technology was not in how the weapons ( in this case) or horse carts or ships looks lsike but raher what they are made of.

I would think a ship from 1000BC (iron age) would be very similar to a ship from 400Ad a 1400 yeas span.

A sword remained a sword, and if we look to the roman empire, they had everything needed for the industial revolutions to kickk off alsready then, and this is debated but is often attributed to slavery that this never happened, as instead of inventing the machine, they just used more slaves.

So if we look to the development of arms and armor, we see very little differenc in 20.30 yea span, yes we get some mosre "hi tech" rifles, but they still shoot the bullet out the barrel, though with a progression from the ball and powder and then the cartridge then the smokeless powder and that is actually where we are now, smokeless powder cartridges.

We see insurgencies waging drawn out was with armsand armor dating back to ww2 even ww1.

So to me it is not somuch a develpment of technology as it is a "slight" imporovement.

and we should not forget manyof today's "modern" weapons are close to a century old.

and if we see star wars in the roman era context, we see a more or less constant technology, that is only pushed forward of the utmost need.

this to me also renders most if not all clone wars arma and armor almoat completely upto par with the newer imperial stuf, and with doctines and tactics in mind, some of the equipment and vessels even far superior still.
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Deep Time and the Republic Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Welcome to the Rancor Pit! Great first post. The galactic scale technological compatibility is a good rational for technology not advancing so much over the deep time of the Old Republic. I would think that another big factor would be the history of war in the galaxy. On Earth, wars tend to spur technological advances as the sides push to gain advantages. Most of the millennia of the SWU were periods of peace in most of the galaxy. Of course Star Wars stories are mostly going to deal with the periods of war.


There are also going to be wars that, due to length and attrition, cause the advances to slow or even reverse as infrastructure is destroyed and most of the traditional resources are depleted. This has actually happened a few times in the history of Star Wars, at least in the 'Legends' timeline, most notably during the Republic Dark Age.

Long story short, somewhere around 2,000 years prior to the films, there was the rise of a New Sith Order, and the start of what was called the New Sith Wars. These were on-and-off conflicts lasting for approximately a thousand years, and towards the last century they heated up considerably to the point of various Sith warlords causing the retreat of the Republic into the core systems.

The infrastructure to maintain things like the holonet and basic astrogation records were heavily diminished, leading to a situation where the Republic effectively no longer existed in direct terms. The war from that point was fought primarily on individual fronts by various Jedi Knights who had set up minor fiefdoms to protect and in fact rule various sectors as de facto warlords, this being the origin of the Jedi Lord title.

The war eventually ended with the Ruusan campaign, approximately a thousand years prior to the films. From this point the Republic rebuilt, but heavily demilitarised, any advances in that technology being mostly massaged over or outright banned, with limits placed on how large and powerful various shipwrights were allowed to build their warships.

A lot of the technology and infrastructure had to start over from scratch.

It also isn't the first time that the Republic had a conflict like this.



As much as anything else, though, I chalk it up to the fact that Star Wars isn't actually science fiction, but pretty much a high fantasy work that happens to have lasers, robots, and spaceships instead of swords. The thousands of years of technological stagnation is just the standard mediaeval stasis trope, but in space. Star Wars is heavily stylised by design, and doesn't stand up to too much hard science fiction scrutiny over its technological timeline, but works well enough when considered from a mythological and fantastical perspective.

There also is technological development, albeit very slowly, but it's mostly just shifts in aesthetic. Some of it is covered in the Essential Guide to Warfare, which I highly recommend as a book overall. If for no other reason than the artwork is pretty rad, and in particular some of the early ship models from the Ancient Republic era are actually really cool.

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