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How do you like to handle sensory perception?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:08 am    Post subject: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Quick question:

In some systems, there are separate skills that govern awareness for different senses (usually sight and hearing, with some also making provisions for scent).

If a player is trying to eaves drop or otherwise detect something that requires senses other than sight, do you use the search skill or just general perception?

How do you feel about a skill that represents a character's ability to gather sensory information effectively above and beyond general perception?

How would you do it?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

General Per with a varied difficulty based on what they are attempting.
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griff
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ewoks have two different advantages with specific aspects of their perception. The first is they have 2D for every 1D put into hide, search, and sneak during character creation only. They also have a bonus of 1D while search: tracking by scent.

So either a bonus during character creation and a constant bonus for a specialty skill is already in the rules.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
In some systems, there are separate skills that govern awareness for different senses (usually sight and hearing, with some also making provisions for scent).
...
How would you do it?

If you want to have separate skills for each sense you could, but I would not do that. The baseline for all senses is humanity, so the difficulty numbers for each sense are according to that basis. As griff mentioned, certain species have special abilities that give them bonuses to search or Perception rolls for specific senses.

If you wanted to have non-species-specific advantages available to purchase in char gen that give bonuses to rolls using specific senses, I think that would be a fine way to allow for senses at different levels without needing separate skills for each.

Naaman wrote:
If a player is trying to eaves drop or otherwise detect something that requires senses other than sight, do you use the search skill or just general perception?
...
How would you do it?

I do not consider search to only work for the sense of sight, so search indeed could be used for eavesdropping. Search and Perception both apply to all senses in my game...

Naaman wrote:
How do you feel about a skill that represents a character's ability to gather sensory information effectively above and beyond general perception?

How would you do it?

In my game, the division between search and Perception is as it is in 1e and 2e (Blue Vader, pre-R&E): Perception is used for passive awareness, and search is used for active awareness (search defaulting to Perception if not improved, as in RAW). Eavesdropping is active so it would use search, and Perception would be used to overhear something when not specifically trying to (so either rolled by the GM or by the player at the GM's request when there is something to possibly overhear). In R&E, search applies to passive and active awareness equally, so your overall sensory perception can be improved as a normal skill (if you apply search to non-vision senses).

From a physical awareness perspective alone, I don't see a need for anything more than Perception and search. However, since Perception also includes base social awareness and it is possible for people to be more physically aware than socially aware, I do also have an Improved Awareness advantage available at char gen that provides a +2 bonus to passive physical awareness rolls, with a prerequisite to having this advantage being to allocate at least 1D to search (because it doesn't make sense for me for passive awareness to ever be more than active awareness). This advantage also gives a small bonus to Initiative.

Here is a thread where these things were discussed.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In my game, the division between search and Perception is as it is in 1e and 2e (Blue Vader, pre-R&E): Perception is used for passive awareness, and search is used for active awareness (search defaulting to Perception if not improved, as in RAW). Eavesdropping is active so it would use search, and Perception would be used to overhear something when not specifically trying to (so either rolled by the GM or by the player at the GM's request when there is something to possibly overhear).
I do the same.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
In my game, the division between search and Perception is as it is in 1e and 2e (Blue Vader, pre-R&E): Perception is used for passive awareness, and search is used for active awareness (search defaulting to Perception if not improved, as in RAW). Eavesdropping is active so it would use search, and Perception would be used to overhear something when not specifically trying to (so either rolled by the GM or by the player at the GM's request when there is something to possibly overhear).
I do the same.

Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.

Investigation is a Perception skill, so characters like that could just have a high base Perception and high Investigation skill. I don't know if that needs an advanced skill.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.

Investigation is a Perception skill, so characters like that could just have a high base Perception and high Investigation skill. I don't know if that needs an advanced skill.

I don't think Investigation covers the full scope of what I'm conceptualizing here, though. There's a trait (trope?) seen in secret agent characters across a variety of genres where they are hyper-alert to seemingly inconsequential details all around them, and I don't think this is fully represented by either a passive Perception Attribute roll or an active Search Skill roll. That's why I'm conceptualizing it as an Advanced skill, in that it's only available through training, but allows the effect of an Active Search roll as an automatic Free Action every round. In effect, being trained in this (A) skill would allow a character to roll his (A) skill instead of his Perception when making the "passive Search" roll you describe above.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don't think Investigation covers the full scope of what I'm conceptualizing here, though. There's a trait (trope?) seen in secret agent characters across a variety of genres where they are hyper-alert to seemingly inconsequential details all around them, and I don't think this is fully represented by either a passive Perception Attribute roll or an active Search Skill roll. That's why I'm conceptualizing it as an Advanced skill, in that it's only available through training, but allows the effect of an Active Search roll as an automatic Free Action every round. In effect, being trained in this (A) skill would allow a character to roll his (A) skill instead of his Perception when making the "passive Search" roll you describe above.

I see what you're going for and it is not unreasonable. But the scope of normal skills can be expanded by house ruling GMs. One reason to use Advanced Skills would be to capture multiple prerequisites. Of course another reason (perhaps the main reason) for advanced skills is for the skills to not available to use by merely defaulting to the attribute. You have to have the skill to use it. That seems to be your main concept here.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.

Investigation is a Perception skill, so characters like that could just have a high base Perception and high Investigation skill. I don't know if that needs an advanced skill.


Agreed. I see what thrawn/holmes has, as a high as heck investigation/perception..
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Tupteq
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.

Investigation is a Perception skill, so characters like that could just have a high base Perception and high Investigation skill. I don't know if that needs an advanced skill.

I don't think Investigation covers the full scope of what I'm conceptualizing here, though. There's a trait (trope?) seen in secret agent characters across a variety of genres where they are hyper-alert to seemingly inconsequential details all around them, and I don't think this is fully represented by either a passive Perception Attribute roll or an active Search Skill roll. That's why I'm conceptualizing it as an Advanced skill, in that it's only available through training, but allows the effect of an Active Search roll as an automatic Free Action every round. In effect, being trained in this (A) skill would allow a character to roll his (A) skill instead of his Perception when making the "passive Search" roll you describe above.


You could solve this in D6 Space way. I see two possibilities:

1. Special Ability.

There are few Special Abilities related to PER: Combat Sense (3) (p.32), Extra Sense (1) (p.33), Fast Reactions (3) (p.33). None of them works like you wanted, but taking them as a base I'd create sth like that:

Sixth Sense (2)
The character gains +1D per rank to passive Perception rolls.

This way player can buy this Special Ability to gain edge in certain situations.

2. Bonus similar to Optional Initiative Bonus (p.58 ).

For every 2D over the base attribute in search or investigation (round down), a character gains +1 to passive PER rolls.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one way to do it, but short of some house rule method of spending CPs to "buy" Special Abilities, there's no real way to add this to an existing character, only to make it part of the character upon creation. Also, I really do think (A) Advanced Skills are badly underused, so if I can find a way to include them that works, I'll take it.
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Tupteq
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That's one way to do it, but short of some house rule method of spending CPs to "buy" Special Abilities, there's no real way to add this to an existing character, only to make it part of the character upon creation. Also, I really do think (A) Advanced Skills are badly underused, so if I can find a way to include them that works, I'll take it.


There are rules to learn Special Abilities in D6 Space (p.54).

In the past I used them lot, to lightsaber forms and many other abilities, but I don't like them anymore because: their price is fixed (and they are cheap), they add to prerequisite skill raising it sometimes too much and last, but not least - they are improved in small steps (improvement is not very spectacular).

My last argument may look not very sensible, but my players (and me too) prefer to learn something new, have new options instead of just adding one more pip in dice pool. We learned that using Martial Arts from Rebel Specforce Handbook - new maneuver for every 1D in skill was a great addition and a completely new quality to use in combat. Because of that I redesigned lightsaber forms from advanced skills to martial arts maneuvers.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: How do you like to handle sensory perception? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded, although I'm still trying to hammer out an Advanced skill - called either Alertness or Awareness - to handle the sorts of extreme perceptiveness found in some secret agent characters, or in detective prodigies like Sherlock Holmes. Or Thrawn.

Investigation is a Perception skill, so characters like that could just have a high base Perception and high Investigation skill. I don't know if that needs an advanced skill.


Agreed. I see what thrawn/holmes has, as a high as heck investigation/perception..


What do you consider "investigation" as a skill to actualy entail?

In my mind, investigation is primarily a social skill that may have some application in proactive information gathering from non-sentient sources (pulling data from an archive or compiling diverse pieces of previously gathered information into an understanding of how those seemingly unrelated pieces fit together).

What CRM seems to be looking for is an ability to effortlessly detect stray details that are seemingly innocuous merely by having an opportunity to observe them (but without consciously looking for them). In D&D, for example, certain characters get a search check merely for walking within a certain distance of a secret door, no matter how cleverly the door is disguised. This would be an example of a passive ability that "kicks in" just because something is there, whether or not the character (or player) thinks there is a reason to search for it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piecing together info gathered to form deductions..
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