The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Code Replicator
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech -> Code Replicator Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
The description doesn’t just apply to a ship transponder code so not starship repair. I could certainly see an argument for Comp Prog/Rep, but I was thinking forgery. It's already a listed skill, the device is use to fake something, and computer programming and repair is already somewhat overused as a skill.

I've made the case elsewhere that Forgery is better suited to the Technical attribute because so many of the things that player character are going to want forged (modern ID's, ship transponder codes, etc) are going to be highly technical in nature. Forgery as a Perception skill seems ill-placed unless one is forging artwork or hardcopy documents of some kind. Obviously, there's a place for both, but one is going to be much more niche than the other. Alternately, Whill has a write-up for making Forgery an Advanced Skill around here somewhere...

Quote:
One of the things that's often glossed over is what tools are needed to make use of a skill, e.g. can you use security with your bare hands or in this case what do you need to forge a scandoc or transponder code. My thought was some type of tool would be necessary to fake a transponder code, scandoc, etc. I could see having better quality code replicators that would provide a bonus, but at this point, I'm just trying to establish a base model.

Agreed. I recall a while back that someone made a very enthusiastic stat for Security Blades (the official name for the odd bits of metal tucked into the pockets on Boba Fett's pants), turning them into the SWU equivalent of a sonic-screwdriver. My thought at the time was "why isn't that just a generic Security Toolkit that allows Boba Fett to make unpenalized Security skill rolls?"

On that note, I suggest adding a "Game Use:" section to your stat, clarifying something along the lines of "This device allows a character to make a normal [insert skill name] roll when attempting to generate a false transponder code," or something to that effect.

Bren wrote:
It’s also possible that Imperial Intelligence operatives have transponder codes that don’t come up on a BOSS search -- especially if they are in ISB or the office of the Inquisition. Those sorts of Internal Affairs folks might not want insufficiently loyal Imperials to be able to look up who that ship that is visiting them or following them is registered to by consulting the BOSS database and get an answer or a red flag like TOP SECRET showing up in the database.

I can see that being useful in some circumstances, but an alternate possibility is that such high-ranking persons would, on occasion, need a BoSS Code that informs any law enforcement personnel in no uncertain terms to leave that ship alone and/or cooperate with them fully.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've made the case elsewhere that Forgery is better suited to the Technical attribute because so many of the things that player character are going to want forged (modern ID's, ship transponder codes, etc) are going to be highly technical in nature. Forgery as a Perception skill seems ill-placed unless one is forging artwork or hardcopy documents of some kind.
The skill being technical makes some sense. But my default is to leave skills where and as they are absent some really compelling reasons. Perception makes sense from a certain point of view if one thinks of Jyn Erso as having some intuitive ability to complete the code that the code replicator initiates. Yeah it’s mostly a hand wave, but one I can live with for now. It also means that the characters with a high aptitude for computer programming/repair and security are not necessarily the same characters as those with a high aptitude for forgery. This means there is perhaps more need for a team rather than having the tongue-tied-tech doing yet one more activity involved in subterfuge and undercover intrusion.

Quote:
Alternately, Whill has a write-up for making Forgery an Advanced Skill around here somewhere...
I saw that thread when I was searching to see if the code replicator had been written up. I'm not interested in making the ability for a PC to try to forge IDs more specialized. That just leads to the PCs always needing an NPC and me as the GM having to make the roll to see how good a fake they get. If possible, I'm happy to let the PCs have the skill and the players make the roll some of the time.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Agreed. I recall a while back that someone made a very enthusiastic stat for Security Blades (the official name for the odd bits of metal tucked into the pockets on Boba Fett's pants), turning them into the SWU equivalent of a sonic-screwdriver. My thought at the time was "why isn't that just a generic Security Toolkit that allows Boba Fett to make unpenalized Security skill rolls?"
For security the party's Tech uses a multitool - which I envision as more of a Swiss Army knife than a sonic screw driver.

Quote:
On that note, I suggest adding a "Game Use:" section to your stat, clarifying something along the lines of "This device allows a character to make a normal [insert skill name] roll when attempting to generate a false transponder code," or something to that effect.
I like that.

Quote:
I can see that being useful in some circumstances, but an alternate possibility is that such high-ranking persons would, on occasion, need a BoSS Code that informs any law enforcement personnel in no uncertain terms to leave that ship alone and/or cooperate with them fully.
I think it depends on the situation. While there are times someone might want an obvious "THIS PERSON IS OFFICIAL AND IMPORTANT" flag, an undercover operative would not want a flag like that since it would tell anyone with access to the BOSS database that they are official. Black Sun and Crimson Dawn will have someone on the take who can look up transponder codes and for actual customs or law enforcement folks this would be equivalent to having Internal Affairs show up in the police squad room. Everybody is going to automatically start wondering what those guys want.

There will be a lot of folks with access only. Far more than the number of people who can modify the database. And it is undoubtedly much easier to find an individual willing to simply look up a number than it is to find one with the ability and willingness to alter the BoSS database. So this knowledge isn't going to be limited to customs and law enforcement folks and the Imperial Navy. I would think that experienced Star Wars private eyes would usually have some contact who could look up BoSS registry information on their behalf and on the QT.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Referring to official types having special or unlisted registry;
I've seen both; Here government and military have different colour plates...so law enforcement knows. It doesn't mean they don't get stopped if they violate, but they are likely to get a lot more leeway.

Without going into details,...EDIT: Actually I shouldn't even say that much. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Without going into details,...EDIT: Actually I shouldn't even say that much. Wink
Well you didn't say where "here" was. Very Happy

What I've seen here (in the US and around Washington DC) is official vehicles (federal and state) have special plates as do official diplomatic vehicles. Unmarked cars also have official plates. Obviously undercover law enforcement (as opposed to unmarked cars) aren't going to use cars carrying official plates. It's the last type of use that I'm referring to when I suggest not having the vehicle registered in BoSS.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14023
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Comp prog/rep is a skill that I find can easily be overused in Star Wars, especially when players or GMs who live in the highly networked, internet, digital, wireless world of today with its computer hackers, virus infected emails, downloadable malware, and hijacked web pages, and phone number spoofed robocalls make computer programming and repair into a magic key. I don’t want computer prog/rep to be an I-win button.

I see Star Wars, droids notwithstanding, as mostly an analog, non-wireless, non-networked setting not some sort of space opera version of cyberpunk. I want don’t want a single, super useful skill. I want other skills like security and forgery to have their place.


Yea. If Comp prog/rep was so useful, most every enemy group would have highly skilled computer hackers to COUNTER hack pcs trying to break into their systems.

Bren wrote:

One of the things that's often glossed over is what tools are needed to make use of a skill, e.g. can you use security with your bare hands or in this case what do you need to forge a scandoc or transponder code. My thought was some type of tool would be necessary to fake a transponder code, scandoc, etc. I could see having better quality code replicators that would provide a bonus, but at this point, I'm just trying to establish a base model.


So true. To me, one needs a set of magnetic and/or physical lock picks for security. Some pieces of paper, datapads, and other tools for forgery. A disguise/art kit for disguise.. In the past, i've often assigned a penalty to certain rolls, for LACKING the base tools needed for the job, and in certain cases (Forgery!!) You can't even do it, without the tools.

Bren wrote:

I think the transponder code is also supposed to have some of the unique vehicle identifying characteristics of a VIN#.


Based on how it's wrote in Platt's ship guide and tramp freighters, it certainly seems like a mix of a Vin, and a recording of your engine's output.. More than, a SW version of a license plate for ships.

CRMcNeill wrote:

I don't see the problem. Comparatively, it's not like the Department of Motor Vehicles is going to have the same level of network security as the NSA. And it's not like you need to hack it, either; a crime network is far more likely to know who the corrupt officials are (probably because said official is a customer who gets his spice or his slave girls from said crime network).


Generally that's why lots of pcs, upp the heck out of their streetwise skill..

CRMcNeill wrote:

You're probably low-balling it, actually. Given planetary population sizes, corrupt individuals could potentially run in the millions per planet. Look at the Earth, with a global population of 7 billion and rising; do you really think there are just a hundred corrupt individuals on this entire planet?


And that's part of the probme. IF things were really that corrupt, why then would ANYONE in their right minds, see the empire as representing law and justice? NO ONE WOULD.
Or no one, sane, would.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've made the case elsewhere that Forgery is better suited to the Technical attribute because so many of the things that player character are going to want forged (modern ID's, ship transponder codes, etc) are going to be highly technical in nature. Forgery as a Perception skill seems ill-placed unless one is forging artwork or hardcopy documents of some kind. Obviously, there's a place for both, but one is going to be much more niche than the other.

I would put forging a signature as a feat of manual Dexterity. Forging an artwork might also involve some Perception. The most common forgeries in Star Wars would indeed be highly technically oriented. The Forgery skill of RAW would have definitely been better placed in Technical, but that is really beside my point...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill... Forgery an Advanced Skill

Advanced skills can have multiple prerequisite skills from multiple attributes, and even base attribute prerequisites, so advanced skills can capture these multiple attribute and skill influences. For most intents and purposes, advanced skills really don't have attributes because they don't default to attributes...

Bren wrote:
Yeah it’s mostly a hand wave, but one I can live with for now. It also means that the characters with a high aptitude for computer programming/repair and security are not necessarily the same characters as those with a high aptitude for forgery.

If Forgery is an advanced skill with Computer Programming/Repair and Security as prerequisites, then characters with a high aptitude for computer programming/repair and security are not necessarily the same characters as those with a high aptitude for Forgery because advanced skills do not default to anything and not everyone with high Computer Programming/Repair and Security will have the Forgery skill. So an advanced skill with Perception and Technical prerequisites would seem to be one solution to at least this particular concern of yours without the hand wave.

Bren wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill... Forgery an Advanced Skill

I saw that thread when I was searching to see if the code replicator had been written up. I'm not interested in making the ability for a PC to try to forge IDs more specialized. That just leads to the PCs always needing an NPC and me as the GM having to make the roll to see how good a fake they get. If possible, I'm happy to let the PCs have the skill and the players make the roll some of the time.

I feel Forgery is indeed an advanced/specialized ability that most characters in the galaxy would not have access to. However, the ability would not be that uncommon among rebels and smugglers (It would be a good skill to have in those campaigns). But it is true that if no PC did have it then they would need an NPC. If you want PCs without the Forgery skill to be able to attempt it by virtue of defaulting to the base attribute, then I can understand not wanting it to be an advanced skill. That is really the argument against advanced skills in general. The original edition of the game was built on the premise that that all skills default to an attribute so can be attempted by the unskilled. Although I embraced the concept of advanced skills when they were introduced to the game for reasons stated earlier in this post, I have disliked the house rule some have of general unskilled penalties. That's going too far away from the 'attribute default' concept for me. In my game, most skills are still normal skills in that they default to the base attribute, but advanced skills still have a place.

As an alternative, a GM could have Forgery be an advanced skill but it is still possible to attempt it without the skill, like how characters without Medicine can use First Aid to operate bacta tanks in RAW. A GM could even make the difficulty the same either way, but have the Forgery skill dice add to the attempt. Just throwing that out there as another option for everyone reading this thread.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
If Forgery is an advanced skill with Computer Programming/Repair and Security as prerequisites, then...
...all forgers will be good at comp prog/rep and security. That is an outcome I don't want nor do I want the corollary of forgery being unavailable to all but a handful of characters. Those that want both outcomes would be well served by making forgery an advanced skill.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And that's part of the probme. IF things were really that corrupt, why then would ANYONE in their right minds, see the empire as representing law and justice? NO ONE WOULD.
Or no one, sane, would.
Fear and propaganda for some, extreme self interest combined with callousness for others.

The real world is replete with examples of political systems that work against the self interest of many of their citizens while at the same having significant support by those same citizens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And that's part of the problem. IF things were really that corrupt, why then would ANYONE in their right minds, see the empire as representing law and justice? NO ONE WOULD.
Or no one, sane, would.

Because the galaxy is not a homogeneous whole, and the people who inhabit it believe in different things and practice different ethics and morals (or don't, as the case may be). You seem to be assuming that every Imperial citizen and government employee is a true believer devoted to the ideals of the New Order. This is almost never the case, and becomes even less likely as the sample size increases, as it also does with distance from the Core. This is why the Fringe and the Alliance do so well out in the Outer Rim, where the Empire's grip is the weakest (relatively speaking). But even in the Core Worlds, there will be those who pay lip service to the Empire but are ultimately just out for themselves. I have no doubt that corrupt bureaucrats get found out and either get arrested, tried and executed, or get turned by Imperial Intelligence or the ISB and become informers, but part of that mindset is often the belief that you are too smart to get caught.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
If Forgery is an advanced skill with Computer Programming/Repair and Security as prerequisites, then...
...all forgers will be good at comp prog/rep and security. That is an outcome I don't want nor do I want the corollary of forgery being unavailable to all but a handful of characters. Those that want both outcomes would be well served by making forgery an advanced skill.

Quite right. It is a sensible corollary that anyone very good at Forgery should be also good at Computers and Security, but a GM gets what a GM wants, as it should be.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0