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1st Edition default scale rules
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: 1st Edition default scale rules Reply with quote

I know that the Rules Companion had a clear codified scale rule for character-speeder-walker-starfighter-captial ship-death star combat. And I know that that was further developed in 2e.

But, did you know there is a distinct scale combat rule right in the 1e Star Wars rpg book, that is further developed in the Star Wars Sourcebook?

The SW:RPG gives character v. ship (starfighter scale) rules on page 65.

Essentially, The starfighter must attack from close range only (characters are too small otherwise....about the size of a womp rat...) and rolls against a difficulty 20 to hit. If the starfighter hits, its damage is DOUBLED against the character.

If the character attacks a starfighter, he rolls to attack as normal, but the damage is limited to 1D for anything less than a medium repeating blaster rifle (less than 7D damage). Medium and Heavy repeating blasters do 2D of damage. If the damage rolled is less than half of the ships hull/shield roll, then there is no ionization or shield damage.

The Star Wars Sourcebook, page 96, lists prices and damage for various equipment items. Of note is that they list "Light Laser Cannons", "Medium Laser Cannons" and "Heavy Laser Cannons" and "Vehicle Mines", with a footer mark. That mark states they are "Vehicle Damage" and refer the reader to page 65 of the SW:RPG (character v. ship combat).

This is clearly implying that ALL vehicle weapons (speeder, walker, and starfighter) use the character v. ship rules on page 65.

That speeder bike on page 63 of the SW Sourcebook with a 3D laser cannon? It does 6D vs. characters, similar to a light repeating blaster.

The AT-ST's 4D twin blaster cannon? That does 8D of character damage, similar to a heavy repeating blaster.

The AT-AT's two 6D heavy laser cannons? They do 12D of character damage (and I'd argue to use the grenade rules to hit everyone within 10 meters of bulls-eye.

Conversely, if a character attacks a vehicle they roll to hit as normal (maybe adjust for size...) but only roll 1D or 2D for damage. If their damage is less than half of the targets Body roll, then the vehicle is not damaged at all.

Vehicle v. Vehicle is resolved normally.

Simple, elegant, cinematic. Just like 1e is supposed to be.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starfigher vs. Capital Ship combat

Using the rules above, and looking at both the 1e Rebel Sourcebook and 1e Imperial Sourcebook, we can work out starfighter v. capital ship combat.

Weapons listed on the capital ships is meant to be used against other capital ships (just like vehicle weapons use vehicle damage).

The larger/smaller to-hit rules from character vs. starfighter (page 65 SW:RPG) can be kept the same.

While weapon damage dice are not consistent, there are trends and averages we see in both the Imp and Reb sourcebooks. Captial ships that have both turbolasers AND starfighter defense weaponry (laser cannons) nearly consistently show the laser cannons as 2D LESS than their starfighter opponents (a quad laser cannon/ 4 linked laser cannons on a starfighter or small freighter has 6D damage, but the same armament on a capital ship is shown as 4D damage) (a single laser cannon on a starfighter or small freighter has 4D damage, but the same cannon on a capital ship is shown as 2D). Starfighter scale weapons are reduced 2D on the capital ship scale.

A starfighter firing at a capital ship would reduce its damage dice by 2D, while a capital ship firing weapons at a star fighter would increase its damage dice by 2D.

That X-wing attacking a Star Destroyer? Its 4 linked laser cannons only do 4D damage. The Star Destroyer's Double Turbolaser (5D), that does 7D damage against an X-wing or stock light freighter. And combined fire (found in the Rules Companion) can increase the Star Destroyer's damage output against that X-Wing.
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a bit off topic from the scale rules but related to your last post.

How do you handle Starfighter vs Capital Ship Combat? As in narrative wise.
I think 1st Ed works great with small fights between starships but I don't really know how to approach that kind of big combat in my campaign.

My players kind of think that in this system you are immortal unless faced with incredible opponents so armed with a 9D proton torpedo they want to attack a star destroyer.

I don't mind them doing it per se but... it has to be a desperate action when it fits dramatically. However I don't feel I have rules to back myself up so feel like I have to just resort to crazy difficulties on the rolls so the whole thing is not a cake walk

Do any of you guys have any tips on this?


Edit: this is just using 1st Edition (rulebook) and I have the star wars sourcebook too.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Zash wrote:
Do any of you guys have any tips on this?
Combined actions by the opponents. I don't recall if 1E had combined action rules but it makes sense that 4 TIE fighters are going to be more of a problem for the PCs than 1 TIE fighter. Give the TIEs a bonus on their attack or defense rolls based on combined actions (if 1E has rules for that). If not I'd use a rule of thumb like every doubling of the number of opponents lets them add +1D to their actions.
2 TIEs = +1D
4 TIEs = +2D
8 TIEs = +3D
etc.

You can do something similar with capital ships firing their guns at the PCs. Or treat the capital ship fire as a movement difficulty. The PCs have to exceed the difficulty or else they can't get in weapons range of the Star Destroyer or if they are in range, they just can't get a clear shot at the because of all the zigging an zagging they have to do to avoid being shot.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rules Upgrade pg. 2, under the Combined Actions section, offers the following (abridged):
    For every additional character involved in the action, add one pip for every full die of skill /attribute / Fire Control the supporting characters have.

    Do NOT use this rule for combining damage, only accuracy (if you want, you could combine it with the Accuracy Damage rules from RoE, but that's no longer the 1E method).

The Star Wars Rule Companion covers Combined Actions on pages 6-8, and uses essentially the same rule, but removes the specific exclusion on Damage...

YMMV.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Zash wrote:
This is a bit off topic from the scale rules but related to your last post.

How do you handle Starfighter vs Capital Ship Combat?

Edit: this is just using 1st Edition (rulebook) and I have the star wars sourcebook too.


First, I consider smaller starships (like the Falcon) to be "starfighter scale", not capital ship scale. So I am assuming you mean TIEs vs. a MonCal, or X-Wings vs. a Star Destroyer.

I agree with using the combined fire rules in the Rules Companion combined gun modifier chart (page 36). A squad of X-Wings should be able to do some damage to a ImpSD.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check page 58 of the 1E Star Wars Sourcebook (first page of the Vehicles chapter). It has rules for starfighter vs. vehicle and vehicle vs. character combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Check page 58 of the 1E Star Wars Sourcebook (first page of the Vehicles chapter). It has rules for starfighter vs. vehicle and vehicle vs. character combat.


I think he's talking about Starfigher v. Capital Ship scale. Page 58 doesn't address that. Looking at the Rebel Sourcebook and Imperial Sourcebook, it isn't consistant, but it seems that starfighter damage dice are reduced 2D against capital scale ships. So I'd reduce starfighter damage dice 2D against Capital ships and increase turbo lasers by 2D against starfighters.

Like I said, I'd also use the combined fire rules from the RC.
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for your replies!

Yup, my biggest concern is Starfighter vs a Capital ship.

It's just that I think this system (1st Ed., with 1st Ed initiative) is not really made for that type of story but inevitably we've got ourselves into that in our campaign.

I guess for a capital ship's batteries, the difficulty of hitting a starship is 20+ (and then add the dodge of that ship) ?? Like when a starship fires a character

Between the pilot (or copilot) skill + the maneuverability of the ship the dodge rolls are so high that I can't just hit them with anything. The campaign has been going for 1 year but in the last months their dice codes are getting ridiculous and it's just impossible for me to challenge my players to a point that they have to make dramatic life or death decisions. So I think the story suffers because for me as a GM is getting harder and harder to keep the illusion than the Empire is an actual threat...


I like the reduction of 2D between scales though, it's easy to remember and to apply.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Zash wrote:
Thank you so much for your replies!

Yup, my biggest concern is Starfighter vs a Capital ship.

It's just that I think this system (1st Ed., with 1st Ed initiative) is not really made for that type of story but inevitably we've got ourselves into that in our campaign.

I guess for a capital ship's batteries, the difficulty of hitting a starship is 20+ (and then add the dodge of that ship) ?? Like when a starship fires a character

<snip>


I like the reduction of 2D between scales though, it's easy to remember and to apply.


So yeah, use the to-hit rules for vehicle combat (normal to hit for starfighter vs. capital ship, but difficulty 20 for capital ship vs. starfighter, and must be close range). Starfighter damage is reduced 2D against capital ships, but capital ship damage is increased 2D against starfighters.

Yes, it is VERY hard for a capital ship to hit starfighters (that point is made in Star Wars, during the Death Star battle). BUT, using combined fire rules, a star destroyer can lay down a volley to try to hit star fighters (flood space with turbolaser fire).

Conversely, it is very hard for a starfighter to damage a capital ship, BUT, using combined fire rules, a squadron of starfighters CAN damage a capital ship.
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