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Are character creation rules fair for Jedi characters?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But why should the first d, for jedi characters be free? Essentially that's giving them 21d, compared to everyone else getting 18d.


Because a force skill at 1D is useless anyway, and you still have to pay CPs over the course of 15 to 20 adventures before the skills become viable.

I'm not saying it "should" be that way. Only that I don't think its unfair to do it that way. It has virtually no impact on game balance other than to make a force sensitive character viable from the start.

It costs 27 cps to bring all force skills up to 3D (54 without a teacher). And that is the up front cost just to make the character playable to its concept, BEFORE accounting for non-force skills. I see that as more than reasonable, that's all.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we now make a house rule that changes character cration to allow the full 18D to go to attributes, and the force skills will be skills, however on the force user templates these are set skills and can not be changed, and they count against the 7D


So we then have the young jedi, 1D to all force dice.
The template will add 3D to attributes.
but will "only" have 4 skills dice to allocate, with the 1D to alter, control and sense being set.

doing this make the "jedi" a more viable character, and it maintains the difference in force user and non force user.
A non force user still need to pay the cp cost to get his fist 1D and power.

so with 50 cp each the characters are pretty evenly matched, even if the full 50 cp is spent by the jedi on force skills and powers alone.

The one thing that have bothered me with the rules is that it takes for granted that the force even with a very easy and easy ( diff 3 and 5) is actually something that is not usable but sonetbing that is extremely OP.

I think this was due to what we see the jedi masters do in movies, against "mooks", and then it was scaled this way.

I remeber loving to play the force user, but I never once I think used a forcce user template becuse I would always be lagging behind in every check.
even with a 3D to every force skill I would be at best lucky to make a normal check in anything, making me feel I ran a "retarded character".

I decided on the TIE fighter template and used cp to get my force skills, now I was allowed to check the force sensitive marker at creation for free, as this is an optional rule.

I spent less points in force skills and forcepowers than the jedi in the group and I out forced, out piloted, out blasted and out everthing the poor jedi.

After all just to be able to shoot at par with me that was not the main master baster his 4D rolls on enhance attribute would not raise his dex by 4D to match the 5D-6D of most of the party with 3D, 3D+X and 4D dex.
nor was the jedi with his massive 2D to knowledge particularly good at jedi lore, and even that was things that others once force senstive was "magically" better at.
Now to mention the willpower disaster, a force power that allows you to use willpower to resistsome powers, however with a nominal 2D to the skill this is a totally useless skill as the cost to get it up again will render the jedi unable to do almost anything.

However the rules are great for a jedi to sit on a rock and be "jedi" and soak up CP from the actions of others, and then once they have completed 50 or so missions he can shine for the last session.

no the force templated need to be adjusted to give then 18D attibutes and then use the 7D for the force dice for the sake of character balance and to actually make the templates useful.

And this fixes the HUGE discrepency between almost every Jedi/sith NPC with 1(D to attribute + Force skills, as to the player character characters -3D attributes

I still wonder if anyine knows the reasoning behind it and how allowing jedi the full 18D to attribues, would in any way make a jedi OP comapred to any other character.

the way things are according to the rules, a jedi is actually LESS skilled than the average stormtrooper mook, when counting skills/attributes and this persists until the jedi has used about 50+ cp
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. Mathematically, its not even arguable.

The only thing a Jedi is "best" at is melee combat damage. But with dark side point rules, he has to be careful there about who he attacks and when. If its just mooks, though, then does it really matter how much damage? The point of mooks is to incorporate some low risk action into the game/story for fun's sake. If the GM is worried that the heavy blaster is only doing 5D damage from afar while the Jedi is doing 7D in melee against mooks... it starts to feel a bit... excessively controlling... maybe even OCD.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yup. Mathematically, its not even arguable.

The only thing a Jedi is "best" at is melee combat damage. But with dark side point rules, he has to be careful there about who he attacks and when. If its just mooks, though, then does it really matter how much damage? The point of mooks is to incorporate some low risk action into the game/story for fun's sake. If the GM is worried that the heavy blaster is only doing 5D damage from afar while the Jedi is doing 7D in melee against mooks... it starts to feel a bit... excessively controlling... maybe even OCD.



It could be a imo wrong notion that when a jedi use his lightsaber to reflect bolts back at the shooter then this is somehow using the jedi melee damage of 7D in your example, and he thus with good rolls do deal 7D in melee and ranged.

However and I think you agree that the defelcted bolt deals 5D if fired from a 5D weapon, 3D if from a 3D damage weapon.

the second thing is upkeeping a power, to me jedi should have do show MAP.
They do not spend 11 days defelcting bolts, they spend 2-3 rounds then move run and do other things before defelcting again, to me this indicated MAP.

Now if the jedi also have to deal with MAP on his powers that is upkept, and this could be most nay power imo, then this even further puts the forceuser at a disadvantage.

once his MAP is spent, he is now a sitting duck
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree... but the lightsaber combat power is so badly written that it really doesnt even make any sense... so I didn't bother trying to explain that bit.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just say first die takes an attribute point to open it up. Then you can use starting skill dice to up the skill. If you walked you could have 3D in each skill but only have 1D for other skills. What I could see someone doing that, would be hard for the character to survive.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC BTB that is normally how it is for creating jedi character templates. the first D in their force comes from attribute die, the rest come from skill die.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IIRC BTB that is normally how it is for creating jedi character templates. the first D in their force comes from attribute die, the rest come from skill die.



I wonder the reasoning behind it, as it only makes being force sensitive a serious drawback, you are weaker, slower, less alert and knows less, yet the force is supposed to make jedi at lest somewhat above par, if not at the very minimum no less than others.

and even 3D to force skills, using enhance attribute will maybe if you are lucky and gamble on the wild dice get that +1D making you maybe at par with any non force sensitive for a few rounds before your force handicap kicks in again LOL
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The easiest way to make it a bit more fair is to just make a Force attribute, and then have Control, Sense, and Alter as skills under it. It also brings the Force in line with mechanics used for every other skill in the game.

So for those templates that sacrifice 3D in Force skills, they instead get:
Force: 3D
- Control
- Sense
- Alter
You then can spend skill dice or pips to increase Control Sense and Alter, meaning that a character might actually be able to use a couple of their Force powers at the beginning of the game.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit more fair is to just make a Force attribute, and then have Control, Sense, and Alter as skills under it. It also brings the Force in line with mechanics used for every other skill in the game.

So for those templates that sacrifice 3D in Force skills, they instead get:
Force: 3D
- Control
- Sense
- Alter
You then can spend skill dice or pips to increase Control Sense and Alter, meaning that a character might actually be able to use a couple of their Force powers at the beginning of the game.


That is a logical approach, I would definitely keep the higher cost for force skills using this method.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
That is a logical approach, I would definitely keep the higher cost for force skills using this method.


It's also the approach that WEG decided to take when they did their D6 books with Extranormal Attributes.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed.

Savar wrote:
I just say first die takes an attribute point to open it up. Then you can use starting skill dice to up the skill. If you walked you could have 3D in each skill but only have 1D for other skills. What I could see someone doing that, would be hard for the character to survive.
Savar wrote:
That is a logical approach, I would definitely keep the higher cost for force skills using this method.

Great to see you posting again, Savar! Welcome back.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
Raven Redstar wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit more fair is to just make a Force attribute, and then have Control, Sense, and Alter as skills under it. It also brings the Force in line with mechanics used for every other skill in the game.

So for those templates that sacrifice 3D in Force skills, they instead get:
Force: 3D
- Control
- Sense
- Alter
You then can spend skill dice or pips to increase Control Sense and Alter, meaning that a character might actually be able to use a couple of their Force powers at the beginning of the game.


That is a logical approach, I would definitely keep the higher cost for force skills using this method.

There’s an article codifying this in Adventurer’s Journal #4, on page 24.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Great to see you posting again, Savar! Welcome back.


Thank you
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
There’s an article codifying this in Adventurer’s Journal #4, on page 24.

I know the guy who wrote that article!
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