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Training vs. "Adventuring"
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree on restricting the skills that can benefit.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A possible altenative can be some common and standarlized skill packages that replace the 7D for skills or parts of them.

You are a young senatorial but your home world in a battlefiled, and thus you recieved at least some basic training.

From your 7D to skills

1D Blaster
+2 Dodge
+1 RUn

leaving you with 5D for your senatorial experience

this training, or these thraning packeges can be as low as 1D and as high as 7D.

( and yes it could be other and more skills that was an eaxample)
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Training/Education/Study vs "adventuring"

I would argue that you learn both diffent skills and learn skills differntly.

Lets tell the story of TK-1111 A stormtrooper on Endor

He is a well trained soldier, an elite and he does have 18D to attributes.
His Mechanical Attribute is 2D+2 and his only real training is in repulsorlifts which he has at 3D+2

During his fighting on endor he is forced to flee, he manages to steal an X wing and he manages to
fly it and get away, though not in the most elegant of ways.

Followign his adventure he got 2Cp, and he can increase his starfighter piloting from 2D+2 to 3D
However I would argue he is not a better starfighter pilot, but he he is better X wing pilot
he in stead get the specialization X wing: and then placing his 2CP he gets 3D still but keeps a CP
due the lower cost of specializations.

this becuse when he came back to the star destroyer, his skill in in starfighter piloting had not really increased
he manned the cockpit of TIE however he still needs to figure out how make the TIE fly, he is learning the
individual fighter, aka specializing.

Now he then starts the academy, learns how to pilot and use his earned CP to increase his base skills.

However the same should not be the case with blasters and some even most weapons.
If you know how to use blaster A then you know how to use blaster B, and here the specialization
would be regardless of training or adventuring a matter of what type blaster you perfer to focus on.

I think the greatest issue in the training vs adventuing is that there are some skills that simply doesn't make
senst that the character just suddenly learned, and some skills should be harder to increase than others.


maybe even disallow some advanced skills be to be learned without training/school or a teacher, maybe at times a teaacher isn't enough
and the GM gives a cap on a skill, you can allocate CP and increase your piloting skill to 3D however even if you could next adventure increase
it to 3D+1 the GM would disalow this, you don't have time, the rescourses to train like you would in a school
and thus you can only progress so far.

Once take some down time, you have this part of things, you then go to school and spend CP, then you naturally
"only" spend this on the school skills, you don't go to flight school to better your piloting skill and
your dodge, you go there to better your piloting skill and your starship gunnery skill.


So even with enough adventuring TX-1111 would not be allowed to go above 3D in his piloting skills unless he went to the academy
or had a flight instructor, tiem and means to learn properly.

even though his number of adventures would have allowed a +1 pip proression to his piloting to 4D.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
If the character uses his time wisely during the course, he gets a bonus on the rolls (representing study, practice, etc.).
I'm not that fond of a bonus for time used wisely. In the real world most people rarely use their time wisely. Procrastination, short attention span, distraction, other responsibilities and time committments, and various vices often take time that ideally could or should have been used more wisely. Many players have their character use their time wisely when there is a game benefit. If the character had to make a Willpower roll to avoid other distractions, I'd be more on board with this.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Naaman wrote:
If the character uses his time wisely during the course, he gets a bonus on the rolls (representing study, practice, etc.).
I'm not that fond of a bonus for time used wisely. In the real world most people rarely use their time wisely. Procrastination, short attention span, distraction, other responsibilities and time committments, and various vices often take time that ideally could or should have been used more wisely. Many players have their character use their time wisely when there is a game benefit. If the character had to make a Willpower roll to avoid other distractions, I'd be more on board with this.


I left it vague because the GM can always "interrupt" the character with temptations (which may trigger a willpower check).

For example, should the character stay in and study, or should he do a favor for the cute girl that he likes (which may earn him an NPC contact instead of the benefits of training)?

Should he practice the techniques he learned in class on his downtime or engage in a contest against other students (effectively "gambling" for a chance to win credits or some other intangible reward, etc)?

Generally, I tend to agree with your point; though, I left it more open ended because a character's personality may lean more toward self-discipline, motivation or commitment without actually amounting to a stronger "willpower" per se.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Generally, I tend to agree with your point; though, I left it more open ended because a character's personality may lean more toward self-discipline, motivation or commitment without actually amounting to a stronger "willpower" per se.
It's somewhat of a pet peeve of mine. Related to the question, is the player playing a character with motivations, goals, and personality that is somewhat different than the player, or is the character a somewhat idealized avatar of the character? And are all character actions completely within the control of the player or does the character sometimes do something the player would prefer that they not do, in this case fail to study.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flight School (civilian)

+1D either Space Transport or Capital Ship piloting

+2 to relevant shileds

+1D astrogation

+2 sensor
+1 communication
+2 repulsorlit repair (most ships have repilsorlift)
+2 Repair relevant ship type


total 5D
2D left for "hobby"

Flight School is a full time study, it is academically demanding and requires a certain level of
self dicipline from the students.

to me this is one way of introducing training, mostly for character creation though.

I do not mean for the training skills to be real world accurate, but to give the needed skill for a star wars setting

for training after creation I would give training packages based on a 2D attribute in CP cost.

that means 5 pip will cost 2+2+2+3+3 =12 cp

the skills in this case piloting related will be given unless the character has attribute +2D or higher
in skill, as in a TIE pilot having 6D in piloting, will thus not benefit from the package and should then be
if wanting a training package encouraged to take something else, maybe a repair pack for the same cost.
His technical is 2D+1 and he has not raised any skill to 4D+1 and thus he can pay the cost of the package and alocate the
various pips, given.


the time spend earning the CP is considered time that includes any study and practice.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Generally, I tend to agree with your point; though, I left it more open ended because a character's personality may lean more toward self-discipline, motivation or commitment without actually amounting to a stronger "willpower" per se.
It's somewhat of a pet peeve of mine. Related to the question, is the player playing a character with motivations, goals, and personality that is somewhat different than the player, or is the character a somewhat idealized avatar of the character? And are all character actions completely within the control of the player or does the character sometimes do something the player would prefer that they not do, in this case fail to study.


This gets at the "nature" of roleplaying games. Does the GM see himself as the role play police? Does the player (or group) tend to be more adventure/accomplishment oriented (more "roll play") or is there more emphasis on story/character development and interaction?

The priorities of the group/player would dictate whether this would matter to me as a GM (or rule designer).

Does that make sense?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Flight School (civilian)

+1D either Space Transport or Capital Ship piloting

+2 to relevant shileds

+1D astrogation

+2 sensor
+1 communication
+2 repulsorlit repair (most ships have repilsorlift)
+2 Repair relevant ship type


total 5D
2D left for "hobby"

Flight School is a full time study, it is academically demanding and requires a certain level of
self dicipline from the students.

to me this is one way of introducing training, mostly for character creation though.

I do not mean for the training skills to be real world accurate, but to give the needed skill for a star wars setting

for training after creation I would give training packages based on a 2D attribute in CP cost.

that means 5 pip will cost 2+2+2+3+3 =12 cp

the skills in this case piloting related will be given unless the character has attribute +2D or higher
in skill, as in a TIE pilot having 6D in piloting, will thus not benefit from the package and should then be
if wanting a training package encouraged to take something else, maybe a repair pack for the same cost.
His technical is 2D+1 and he has not raised any skill to 4D+1 and thus he can pay the cost of the package and alocate the
various pips, given.


the time spend earning the CP is considered time that includes any study and practice.


What do you think of advanced training, though? The TIE pilot you mentioned could surely benefit from a special operations course (like the empire's version of Top Gun) if he were to attend. What do you think?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Flight School (civilian)

+1D either Space Transport or Capital Ship piloting

+2 to relevant shileds

+1D astrogation

+2 sensor
+1 communication
+2 repulsorlit repair (most ships have repilsorlift)
+2 Repair relevant ship type


total 5D
2D left for "hobby"

Flight School is a full time study, it is academically demanding and requires a certain level of
self dicipline from the students.

to me this is one way of introducing training, mostly for character creation though.

I do not mean for the training skills to be real world accurate, but to give the needed skill for a star wars setting

for training after creation I would give training packages based on a 2D attribute in CP cost.

that means 5 pip will cost 2+2+2+3+3 =12 cp

the skills in this case piloting related will be given unless the character has attribute +2D or higher
in skill, as in a TIE pilot having 6D in piloting, will thus not benefit from the package and should then be
if wanting a training package encouraged to take something else, maybe a repair pack for the same cost.
His technical is 2D+1 and he has not raised any skill to 4D+1 and thus he can pay the cost of the package and alocate the
various pips, given.


the time spend earning the CP is considered time that includes any study and practice.


What do you think of advanced training, though? The TIE pilot you mentioned could surely benefit from a special operations course (like the empire's version of Top Gun) if he were to attend. What do you think?


Exactly.

So lets say he took 4D of his 7D to use for ground combat skills.
He is a capable driver so not much need for repulsolift, but he could benefit from blaster, dodge, demolitions, and maybe even some melee and brwaling. Spend 4D on this, keep 3D for "normal" character progression, the TIE pilot has now undergone special oerations training.

I see the template as a "top" tier graduate, with the average TIE pilit raning in the 3D dex range.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

This gets at the "nature" of roleplaying games. Does the GM see himself as the role play police? Does the player (or group) tend to be more adventure/accomplishment oriented (more "roll play") or is there more emphasis on story/character development and interaction?

The priorities of the group/player would dictate whether this would matter to me as a GM (or rule designer).

Does that make sense?


Exactly. Though some game systems DO have built in measures for the DM to use, such as alignment in adnd..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually had a DM change a character's alignment on the spot due to an action performed that he felt didn't match up with the alignment the player had selected.

Since there are mechanics in place (such as holy or chaotic enchantments, etc.) which affect some characters but not others depending on alignment, I can see this being actually enforced via "the rules."

In a SW D6 setting (and this may turn out to be a wash), I have known some GMs to award CP for role play which adheres to a character's stated personality, especially when the character loses something tangible for the choice he made.

In my experience, players who are "serious" about the game will reliably make "in character" choices without regard for the opportunity cost. There are those casuals who show up once in a while and treat table top like agame of Diablo wherein LOOOOOOOOOOT and EXPEEEEEE are the only things they worry about.

They don't usually last long enough to be consequential, however.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:


Exactly.

So lets say he took 4D of his 7D to use for ground combat skills.
He is a capable driver so not much need for repulsolift, but he could benefit from blaster, dodge, demolitions, and maybe even some melee and brwaling. Spend 4D on this, keep 3D for "normal" character progression, the TIE pilot has now undergone special oerations training.

I see the template as a "top" tier graduate, with the average TIE pilit raning in the 3D dex range.


Actually, I was thinking of advanced flight school.

In the US, the Navy and the Air Force have special operations pilots.

For that matter, the Navy and Marines have special boat teams, and the Army has special operations helicopter pilots.

Do you see a place for advanced training which requires a character to already be among the best in his field, whether that be piloting or ground fighting or whatever?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:


Exactly.

So lets say he took 4D of his 7D to use for ground combat skills.
He is a capable driver so not much need for repulsolift, but he could benefit from blaster, dodge, demolitions, and maybe even some melee and brwaling. Spend 4D on this, keep 3D for "normal" character progression, the TIE pilot has now undergone special oerations training.

I see the template as a "top" tier graduate, with the average TIE pilit raning in the 3D dex range.


Actually, I was thinking of advanced flight school.


You mentioned Entry level.
maybe this is the route to go, basically find out what would constitute entry level.

If we look at the storm commado write up in the special forces supliment, we see that the various team members recieve their team specializations.

The base "commado" then adds/changes the specialization package, to fit as medic, techie, assulter, saboteur etc.

so maybe do an entry level thing and work out what training would do as well as adventuring.

so if all ground operting/special ops soldiers get +1D balster or they get 4D to be "at prefessional level"
this will only apply to characters with less than 4D in relevant attribute
then go to the next attribute and look what skills would be entry level for the "role" and give these to 3D-4D

I would not think that you would go to even 5D at entry level, but 4D yes

In the US, the Navy and the Air Force have special operations pilots.

For that matter, the Navy and Marines have special boat teams, and the Army has special operations helicopter pilots.

Do you see a place for advanced training which requires a character to already be among the best in his field, whether that be piloting or ground fighting or whatever?



If the char<cter is already among the elite, then I think this whole thing will be difficult.

How do you get CP during training, and yes a navy seal is given ADDED cp for everything they learn, and sorry to say a non military or even a non spec ops, will be signifacntly less skilles in most areas concented, and not better skilled or better by far in any other skill.


I we follow the Dilce levels to see power, I would not give much training allowing anything to go above 6D-7D including specializations.

However I would for a realism , not game balance aspect maybe gove 12-100D to a set of skills, with a cap on +3D above attribute, maybe even give added attribute dice as I have no issues seeing a well trained spec ops have more than the 18, considering that at least the royal guards do go a 5D, though retianing their 18 total, we do have examples of characters that do have 18+ to attributes.

my issue is anything given makes for too powerful a character, though I am not concerned with balance that much, if character overcomes vader and the old fart every time I cough then I am too much
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
This gets at the "nature" of roleplaying games. Does the GM see himself as the role play police? Does the player (or group) tend to be more adventure/accomplishment oriented (more "roll play") or is there more emphasis on story/character development and interaction?

The priorities of the group/player would dictate whether this would matter to me as a GM (or rule designer).

Does that make sense?
Yep. To elaborate a bit on your bifurcation we have:

A. Accomplishment - finish/succeed at the adventure, defeat the bad guys, improve the character's abilities, get new or improved equipment and do-dads, etc.

and

C. Character - character personality development, character interaction with PCs, character interaction with NPCs, consistency of character personality probably fits here as well.

I want both A and C. I also want those things occurring in a pretty consistent setting.




I want both
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