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Skill level cap?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Skill level cap? Reply with quote

I came to think that maybe there should be some cap to how high you can learn a skill.

I came to think of this becuse of the force power sense force potential.

to me the mere name indicates that there is some cap

" This power allows a Jedi to probe the mind of a target, and determine whether that person has the potential to be strong in the Force. "

this is the first part of the description of the force power, and to me this indicates that there is some form of a cap.

could someone "only" be strong enough in the force to have a total of 9D in the force skills, or?

and does it make sense to have some form of cap on how high a skill can be thought?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the RAW, this should just allow the Jedi to sense the “Yes/No” option on Force Sensitive, or what their Force Attribute is (if you’re using that option).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Based on the RAW, this should just allow the Jedi to sense the “Yes/No” option on Force Sensitive, or what their Force Attribute is (if you’re using that option).



it does, but isn't that very much a "crossover" power with sense force?

when it is mentioned potential to me this indicates some form of cap.

I do however wonder if a cap on certains skills at least makess sense, I mena we all ahve a potential, and to be fair, a human with 30D in lifing should not despite the rolls be able to lift a yt 1300
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might, if there was any sort of mechanism like that in the RAW. Unfortunately, there is only Force Sensitive?: Yes/No. As in Yes = "has potential to be strong in the Force," and No = "Does not." Other than that, the only cap should be how hard the player is willing to work at building up his character.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Skill level cap? Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I came to think that maybe there should be some cap to how high you can learn a skill.


How would you do that? Say make it you 'cap out' at twice the D of the attribute? Three times?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Skill level cap? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
I came to think that maybe there should be some cap to how high you can learn a skill.


How would you do that? Say make it you 'cap out' at twice the D of the attribute? Three times?



yeah therein lies the question, if any how much?

I just see a problem with things like 35D lifting, now such a character would most likely not be able to do much other stuff ...but he sure can lift stuff.

On such a roll the character can "easy" lift the falcon and still carrry a pack.

so to me there is a "cap" out there, I am just not sure where it is on the scale.
but what is reasonable and is a falt cap reasonable or should be basend on common sense and left to player?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to think that the attribute is the key. Someone who is very smart would have a high knowledge attribute. In life, an innately "smart" person can recall a great deal of general and specific information, and can analyze the information he knows in a sort of "quantum" way: rationships between individual data points are "obvious" to a "smart" person, while a regular Joe sees no connection unless it is pointed out/explained to him.

So, Regular Joe could have the 2D knowledge and the same skill level, (say, 6D in Scholar: SWRPG D6), while Braniac Billy has 4D knowledge.

Two ways to look at this: Joe had to spend more time and effort to get up to 6D, and therefore, his 6D means the same as Billy's 6D (that is, he "struggled" for it and therefore, earned it). Or, Billy's higher knowledge attribute could allow him some means of having a more thorough understanding.

If you want a skill cap, you could try a some variations on the roll/keep system.

1) no cap on skill level. Roll skill, and total up only a number of dice equal to the attribute.

The problem here is that this sets a limit of 12-24 on most people's rolls, so you would probably need to make all dice explode on a 6 (but still only have 1 of them cause problems on a 1).

2) roll skill, keep up to double or triple the attribute. This allows someone with 2D strength to roll, for example, 35D in lifting, and have a very high chance of getting "max" result (24 if you use double or 36 of you use triple).

If I were to go with this, I would go with number two, and I would set the cap at "keep triple."
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was contemplating adding in a skill cap based on whatever attribute. Probably something like 3x the attribute. So, a character with a 4D attribute can max out their skill at 12D, a character with 2D can max out at 6D.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I was contemplating adding in a skill cap based on whatever attribute. Probably something like 3x the attribute. So, a character with a 4D attribute can max out their skill at 12D, a character with 2D can max out at 6D.


i was thinking someting similar, but I like this.

I was thinking that unless you have a teacher you can not at all raise a skill above +4D to Attribute aka 8D in skill cap for DEX 4 character.
With a teacher you can continue above this cap.

But yes I lied your idea there, on the x3 or something attribute.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we require a teacher to get beyond +4D, how did the (first) teacher ever get beyond +4D?

In life, things seem be be the opposite: the initial learning requires a teacher, up to the point that a character is advanced enough to start innovating new methods/techniques in whatever field.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I tend to think that the attribute is the key...
Raven Redstar wrote:
I was contemplating adding in a skill cap based on whatever attribute...
Mamatried wrote:
I was thinking that unless you have a teacher you can not at all raise a skill above +4D to Attribute aka 8D in skill cap for DEX 4 character. With a teacher you can continue above this cap.
Naaman wrote:
If we require a teacher to get beyond +4D, how did the (first) teacher ever get beyond +4D?

The first teacher could have had a very high attribute, and skills default to attribute. I'm not advocating this system. Just saying.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. I suppose the RAW also allows for advancement of attributes beyond species "maximum.'
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
If we require a teacher to get beyond +4D, how did the (first) teacher ever get beyond +4D?

In life, things seem be be the opposite: the initial learning requires a teacher, up to the point that a character is advanced enough to start innovating new methods/techniques in whatever field.


Well, its like ADND. If one needs a teacher to learn magic from, or weapon specialty from, HOW DID the first person ever learn it???
Its the 'chicken and the egg' conundrum.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am thinking that characters should be allowed to advance on their own to a degree, and depend on an instuctor or teacher to some degree.

Other than the higher cp cost that is.

I am considering allowing advancement without a teacher to +2D attribute, with this representing more in terms of higher learning that true skill level.

Basically the 2D you manage to learn your self represent hobbies, intrest and what ever you learned by your self.
the higher learning, meaning above +2D in the skill and the advanced skills etc, will from that point on need a teacher, must then teach the character a full +1D before they can advance on their own again.

Skill cost for teacher applies.

By doinf this intermediate thing we still have self improvement, faster with a teacher.
We do have some caps on some skills that make sense, I doubt even by 2x CP cost that anyone by themselves will even come in a situation to warrant them access to "propper" studies and information, leaving with them "holes in the education" and this makes sense.

You can educate your self as a hobby game hunter to be an excellent marksman, you can learn to hide, use a radio, but this doen't male you a scout sniper, for that you needthe instructor to teach you the same as above, but the "right way" indicating the +1D, then the character has completed the course for now and enough to learn on his own, or rater improve.

I can see this in many cases with advanced skills, I mean just becuse I manage to find my own peculiar way to do CPR I dount the same peculiar way would warrant me to be a surgon, get the surgery advanced skill from what....doing a dr evazan until I maybe learn something?

So I think the mix is maybe the answer here,

A cap to how far you can progress without a teacher, then how much a teacher needs to teach you to access the higher learning of the skill

( I here actually disregard the skill grades, as most if not every NPC out there with a name is MASSIVE on CPs comaperd to a player character, and sorry to sayt a TIE fighter pilot who can begin play at 6D, serving actively should without too much difficulty raise this to 8D 9D even 10D and above...and this is the one in the galaxy level?

I don't see them making all that much sense unless people save up 100s or 1000s of cp or otherwise refuse to get better,

and this is why I think there should be a cap, at least in how much you can teach yourself alone, now a team or group of palyers IMO can easily teach eachoter at least to a degree.

I would also require the teacher to not simply have D in a skill to teach but have 2D higher that his student's skill, but can teach "only" to 1D less than theacher skill. meaning a teacher with 7D astrogation can teach anyone upto 6D, but not above.
Most students at 6D youd not bebefit much from this teacher and should seek one at 8D

So Joe has 3D in Mechanical, he has 4D in astrogation and want to improve this. after enough time he can finally raise this to 5D, the cap of his self learning.
He is a good "leyman astrgator" but he can't even try to convince anyone that he knows his stuff, comapred to the academy graduated astrogater.

So he finds a teacher, and because ha has 5D in astrogation he finds one with no less than 7D, capable of teaching Joe enough to raise his skill to 6D.
Joe must can now quit and begin learning on his own, he can then eventually get 7D in his astogation skill, and be good at it.
But Joe is not happy, he wants to be even better...but again he needs that teacher that can give hism the knowledge he can't find alone.....he has now 7D in his astrogation skill and thinks ahead going for a veteran astrogation maste one with a staggering 10D to his skill.
Joe with his 7D, can now study inder this teacher until his skill increaes to 9D...he is then most likely never getting better or ...he is teaching others, but yeas he can rais it to 1D, but then will need another teacher...and so on and so on

I am also inclined to allow a higher and faster progression with the propper teacher and facilities.

Normal progression is +1pip to skill at the time, but maybe a teacher should allow you to inctrese the skill +2pip in one go, or maybe a full 1D

so Joe increases his skill on his own from 4D to 4D+1, then 4D+2, then 5D and then he found out it was so much easier with a teacher
he now payed the cp cost, but he didn't have to improve 5D+1, rather he can imprive to 6D directly.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Billy's higher knowledge attribute could allow him some means of having a more thorough understanding.

If you want a skill cap, you could try a some variations on the roll/keep system.

1) no cap on skill level. Roll skill, and total up only a number of dice equal to the attribute.

The problem here is that this sets a limit of 12-24 on most people's rolls, so you would probably need to make all dice explode on a 6 (but still only have 1 of them cause problems on a 1).

Do you mean if you have a 3D attribute and a 5D skill, you roll the five dice and only keep the best three single die results, discarding the lowest two dice? By the time you add in stuns/wounds, MAPs, and other modifiers, you've got nothing. Having all the dice be wild still won't help most of the time. Plus taking something away and then adding something else in this way is just superfluous crunch.

Naaman wrote:
2) roll skill, keep up to double or triple the attribute. This allows someone with 2D strength to roll, for example, 35D in lifting, and have a very high chance of getting "max" result (24 if you use double or 36 of you use triple).

If I were to go with this, I would go with number two, and I would set the cap at "keep triple."

So this option is setting a total result max? And wasn't the question about limiting the number of skill dice rolled based on the attribute? Your options are not that, but rather your alternative to that by capping dice roll results? I'm not a fan of either of these options. But then again I'm not really a fan of attribute-based skill maximums of any kind.

Mamatried wrote:
I came to think that maybe there should be some cap to how high you can learn a skill.
Naaman wrote:
So, Regular Joe could have the 2D knowledge and the same skill level, (say, 6D in Scholar: SWRPG D6), while Braniac Billy has 4D knowledge.

...Joe had to spend more time and effort to get up to 6D, and therefore, his 6D means the same as Billy's 6D (that is, he "struggled" for it and therefore, earned it).

For the most part, attribute values are just default skill values. I feel skills of a 6D value should be equal between characters no matter how much of that skill is base attribute and how much of it was improved over the attribute, as it is in RAW. The benefit of the higher attribute is the other skills that default.

But I can maybe see a flat skill level limit unrelated to attribute value. I don't think I've ever had a player raise more than two of their PC's skills to 8D before moving on to improving other skills. 10D seems to be a good limit.
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