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D6 vs D20 character balance (force users)
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:51 am    Post subject: D6 vs D20 character balance (force users) Reply with quote

Underpowerd d6 jedi vs balanced d20 jedi

DEX 3D
Blaster 5D
Brawling Parry 4D
Dodge 4D
KNO 3D
Scholar 4D
MEC 3D
PER 3D
STR 3D
Brawling 4D
Stamina 4D
TEC 3D

ALT 0D
CON 0D
SEN 0D

+30CP

-Force Sensitive 20cp
gained +1 force point, must adhere to Dark/light rules
can find teacher and learn the force

-force skill learned 10cp
having found a teacher (even another player) and paied the 10cp needed
gained +1D force skill +1 Foecee power


DEX 3D
Blaster 5D
Brawling Parry 4D
Dodge 4D
KNO 3D
Scholar 4D
MEC 3D
PER 3D
STR 3D
Brawling 4D
Stamina 4D
TEC 3D

ALT 0D
CON 1D
-Enhance Attribute
SEN 0D

+30CP

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets add 30 cp to a force user and look at the skills and the level of power.

DEX 2D
Blaster 3D
Dodge 5D
Lightsaber 3D
KNO 3D
scholar 4D
MEC 2D
PER 3D
persuasion 4D
STR 3D
Brawling 4D
TEC 2D

ALT 1D
telekinesis
CON 1D
enhance attribute
SEN 1D
life sense

+30CP no matter how these 30cp are added this character caan not match the above character.

to note here is that I did not alocate the 7D skills dicce to any force skills, this becuse you can make then
3D with 1D left over, however even at 3D the force powers are not even remotely powerful enough to compenzate
and they become mere cantrips, and stay this way.

If we compare to "casters" in d20 systems their magic don't force them to be physically or mentally "less" than
others, they have hit bonues that is less, indicating less direct combat training.

so my question is does the d20 system balance force users better than d6.

lets compare d20 with some "set piece" system ofcreation, we can take a point buy.
no matter what you do with attribute, you are depending on species, given the feats at level 1, thise can make you both
force sensitive and force user, this is fully allowed in the d20 raw.

this now allows a jedi to have the same level of attributes (attribute bonuses here are the defaults)
as non force users, they have differences in how much time they spend on learning skills and thus here is the balancing in that system


to me ALL player character should have 18D to attributes, even the force users, however force users should due to how much focus is neeeded
to learn the force they should have the force skills deducted from the 7D force dice.

this allows a "jedi" to get 3D in all three skills, start with x powers and retain 18D in attributes.

if we look at the MAX you can increase your attribute this is by +2D, and for a very limited time

Default DEX is 2D, a super lucky (needed 6-7D to control) roll that is 27 ABOVE the difficulty of 15 (roll of 42 on average)
the jedi can for 2-3 rounds have the the effective 4D to the dex skill he uses...........

that is to me not in any way being "powerful" as a force user.

if we look to damage powers, lets take any power that deal alter or 1/2 alter or ortherwise damages, we see that to even be able to continously
and without playing lotto on the wild dice be able to force lightling damage anyone they must have at least 5D in the needed force skill.
as the default average of a person is 2D to resist.

in order to get 2D regurlarly 4D is needed for the damage, and 6-7D+ needed to actually manage to do this regularly without relying on rolling
the multiple wild dice.

D20 fixes this I will argue
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to remind that in SWd20 Jedi:

- spent their powers like wizards in old AD&D "running out of mana" in combat unlike d6
- powers are much less powerful compared to d6
- powers are very limited in range compared to d6
- Block/Deflect/Soresu are no match for Lightsaber Combat especially when facing multiple shots

So Jedi has to combine both Force and physical skills to be effective.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I would like to remind that in SWd20 Jedi:

- spent their powers like wizards in old AD&D "running out of mana" in combat unlike d6
- powers are much less powerful compared to d6
- powers are very limited in range compared to d6
- Block/Deflect/Soresu are no match for Lightsaber Combat especially when facing multiple shots

So Jedi has to combine both Force and physical skills to be effective.



Are the powers more powerful in D6 I would argue not.

lets look at this:

Difficulty: Moderate (15)

0-13 +1D / 3 rounds
14-25 +2D / 2 rounds
26+ +3D / 1 round

What you see here is a 3D control force user rilling ALWAYS 15 or better, he gets a +1D to his rolls for 3 Rounds.

So a beginner character must gamble on the wild dice to maybe be ableto pull of a power deemed "overpowered" that simply renders him at par, slightly under par still compared to someone with that +1D in thier attribute permanently.
Enhance Ability (CHA)
Trained Only: Requires the force sensitive Feat
Description: You can call upon the force to increse your stregth or dexterity for 10 rounds (1 minutes)
Check: Attack actions adds bonus to either dex or str for 10 rounds

result of roll deterimens the strength of bonus

15-19 +2
20-24 +4
25-29 +6
30+ +8

Given that a player character can start the game with a total of 5 Ranks, andattribute bonuses etc
these rolls and the difficulty is significantly lower.

Cha: 16 (+3)

Enhance ability: 5 +3 (+ X Misc bonuses)0 +8 ranks, need to roll 7 on d20
this now adds +2 ro attribute at the lowest, increasing the str bonus by +1 or more.

with this we can then think he increases his dex to shoot, he has blaster skill of 5, dex of 14
total 7 he needs normally roll 8s to hit most things, with rolls of 15 being very good in d20
he then increases his dex with a force power adding +1 to this, he now rolls only 7s for 10 rounds.


While we can't directly translate d6 to d20, we can assess power.

IF a needed 15 is required to get 10 rounds of a +1 or higher bonus, this is in d20 actually significant.
I would call a +1 bonus close to the power of a 1D in d6.

now you start out easy and without anything else than point buy, or rolls, with a pissible 10+
starting toal rank in a skill, then having to roll 5 or higher to get the bonus.

Now look to the above d6, where you have a moderate difficulty 15, on 3d6(at best for a starter character)
a significantly less chance, the +1D to attribute for 1-3 rounds is equally insignifcant, and harder than needed at
a starting level.



lets comapre this to the d20 enhance attribute.



This is the roll ABOVE the difficulty.
This is hard to pull of at anything less than 6-7D in relevant force skill.

in D20 each power is a skill, making it possible to extremely powerful in force lightning, and simply not at all powerful in telekinetic kill.

D6 deals with this slightly differnt.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi are weak in both systems. The only thing that "balances" them out is the lightsaber damage, which takes time to grow.

Without either system's lightsaber damage, a Jedi is a pretty lame class (for different reasons in each system).

The one thing that d20 (RCR... I don't know or care much about Saga) does better than D6 is that it enforces opportunity costs a bit "better" (depending on what you "like" when conceiving a character concept) by adding additional mechanics to character development (saving throw progressions, attack bonus progressions, class skill lists, bonus feats, etc).

They still gimped Jedi by making them pay twice for all of their force powers: first they have to expend their precious few skill points raising both force powers and regular skills (they have enormous skill lists, and low or medium skill points), and then they have pay each time they use a force power in the form of "vitality" (hit points). The only way to get "powerful" as a Jedi is to keep taking Jedi class levels. If you multiclass in order to expand your skill set, you are a weaker force user than a "pure" Jedi of the same character level, etc...

With D6, though, you can make "exactly" what you want to play with the caveat that another character with similar skills (but a different "concept") will "play the same" as your character.

For example, a master of lightsaber deflection would have a high sense and high lightsaber skill. A master of Ataru who is also good at farseeing will have "the same" ability to deflect blasters, even though it's not "his thing."

That being said, I find it much easier to "bring to concept" a low level Jedi character in d20 (RCR) than in D6.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderate starts with 11.

+1D bonus is useless anyway as it is lost due to MAP. So you roll the same amount of dice

Creating Jedi with only 1D in each skill is not a good idea (not likely to even activate LS)
So at the beginning you are mostly a hero with 3D less in attributes and access to powers that you cannot use.

In d20 at 1st level you can use it - with more or less efficiency against a single low level enemy. With sorsesu you can reroll once.

What I meant is that Luke Skywalker D6 is far more dangerous than d20.

PS. In SAGA all characters damage is boosted with level so Jedi are "balanced" even more.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes Luke is more dangerous, however Luke is NOT a character created by the rules. Luke has 18D attributes, not 15D having spent attribute dice to buy the skills

that would be very significant.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Luke has 17D+1 Wink

But there are others with 18D:
Andur Sunrider
Cay Qel-Droma
Dace Diath
Nomi Sunrider
Ulic Qel-Droma
Palpatine
Obi Wan Kenobi

Vader has 20D

So I guess only PCs are in a bad starting position...
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