| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
 Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:58 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Grimace wrote: | The lack of shields in atmosphere was mentioned, I believe, In Rogue One when the Star Destroyer was hanging over Jedha. Or I read it. That Star Destroyer did not have its shields up either, but it constantly had TIE sentries patrolling and other ships in transit (as well as probably gunners with their fingers on the triggers). The Sith ships obviously didn't have that, as they were not expecting a bunch of ships to randomly show up and start battling them.
Thus the no shields in atmosphere was already established elsewhere. I know I either read it or heard it somewhere in the new trilogy. |
The simpler explanation for that would’ve been that the SD was loading its cargo of magic crystals, and thus couldn’t have its shields up.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Darklighter79
Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | And they can't even leave atmosphere without the navigational signal? |
Yes, apparently point up and setting forward would do no good.
Why they waited in atmosphere when they could go up at the very beginning to protect the planet from any potential attack?
| Whill wrote: | | And why can't the death star destroyers use shields in the atmosphere? Just to explain how they easily get shredded after Lando's hodge-podge cavalry of Core World citizens show up in the final battle? |
They mentioned in the movie that "weird lightning storms and magnetic anomalies" made shields inoperable. Again, one more reason to stay in the atmo from the very beginning...
| Quote: | | Lightspeed skipping is a shark jump. What exactly is lightspeed skipping? Is it going to random locations? If lightspeed skipping is almost suicidal, |
LS is a JJ's idea to show several exotic locations in 10 seconds.
Lightspeed skipping in "cloud city" and "rocky" location it seems that Falcon went through the solid objects.
| Quote: | | The Force unleashed! Rey and Kylo Ren doing the Force tug of war with the transport (with full thrusters blasting) was just ridiculous. This isn't a little lightsaber telekinesis like in the previous two films. And Rey's epic accidental Force lightning destruction of the transport is over-the-top absurd. |
It's like wild magic effect due to spell control failure. And now using the Force kills, because you spent own's life force to do things. It's no longer "you must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship." I know now what was the most important thing in the Jedi Temple located near the youngling's training quarters - 24/7 ER division for medical assistance.
Obviously also the failure in the understanding the concept of the Force.
| Quote: | | Lightspeed tracking? When the Falcon did the lightspeed skipping, it was tracked through hyperspace by tie fighters multiple times. What the what? In the last film the 'lightspeed tracker' was a dedicated system on a single gigantic capital ship. Did the First Order spend the past year miniaturizing the tech and updating all its ships with it, down to every little TIE fighter?! |
They could have hacked Falcon's nav comp and draw the data in real time from there. Other explanation would be lousy, imho.
| Quote: | | According to TRoS, the power that Force ghosts have is to continue having the same exact power they had in physical life. |
Even more as: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”
So you say that Disney is planning new special editions where all the severed limb scenes will be gone?
| Quote: | | Exegol. The concept of Exegol as a hidden, unreachable place becomes unbelievable when we see how many people have reached it. |
Yeah. Kessel was hidden - located inside the nebula, with a very narrow access path. Exogol is in open space. This whole flight through the red cloud and then jumping again to the planet itself is illogical.
| Grimace wrote: | | I used to think only Victory Class Star Destroyers could enter atmosphere. Turns out others can, but I can still rationalize and say the Victories can do it with shields, whereas the Imperials cannot. |
Well, seeing TESB and the entire city floating in gas giant atmosphere, I always considered this rule illogical and out-of the-sw-universe.
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Now imagine feeling this way since 1999. |
Yeah, I do feel sorry for you buddy, but it is hard for me to empathize too much because TRoS is unprecedented in the number of issues. At least you'll always have the CT and this game, right?
| Grimace wrote: | | I don't have to imagine. |
I know you aren't a fan of the PT. But you are a much bigger fan of the Disney films than TS is.
| Grimace wrote: | | Think of feeling this way since 1977? Or '79? Or '83? |
I don't understand 1977. Are you referring to people who just loved the Star Wars novelization but were disappointed in the film? 10 films later, I doubt all two of those people are still with the franchise. What happened in 1979 to make early fans disappointed by Star Wars? TS was referring to being a SW fan for many years and then Star Wars went downhill for him. I can understand 1983 a little more because I'm sure there were big fans of the first two films in the world who were disappointed by primitive teddy bears and Vader not being evil anymore. But here we are fans of the WEG RPG which was based on the CT and came out years later. I can't think of anyone here feeling about any CT film anywhere near how I feel about TRoS. The classic trilogy is what we all have in common here.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Much to grok, but my first impression is that this validated my decision to not see them film / wait to see it on Disney+. |
Glad I could take 4 bullets for you.
The first time I watched the movie, I just tried to just soak it in and not to think about it too much to enjoy it as much as I could. The second time, I tried to pay close attention to everything for things I may have missed the first time. The third and fourth times, I took notes. But of course, while I am thinking about what I am writing, I may miss other stuff. And then later when I get home, I have to decipher my handwriting (I could use Theepio). I can barely even see the page in the dark without my reading classes on. I despise people that look at their phones during movies so I couldn't be a hypocrite put out light pollution into the theater just to see better. This was a much more difficult process than it would have been if I could have watched the film on Disney+ at home with subtitles with ability to pause, rewind, jump straight to a part of the film. But I didn't want to wait to start my catharsis...
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:16 am Post subject: TRoS |
|
|
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | | I used to think only Victory Class Star Destroyers could enter atmosphere. Turns out others can... |
Well, seeing TESB and the entire city floating in gas giant atmosphere, I always considered this rule illogical and out-of the-sw-universe. |
Cloud City is the size of some capital ships. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Grimace was saying that the tech didn't exist for artificial environments to survive in atmospheres, just that the Imp SD couldn't in the EU.
My interpretation of WEG lore about Imp SDs not being able to enter atmosphere wasn't because of the air but rather because the atmosphere exists within the gravity well of the planet so I thought the idea was that the Imp SDs did not have repulsorlift engines to maintain altitude without crashing. Victory-classes have them. Cloud City does and was specifically designed to maintain a certain altitude on the gas giant. According to RO, Imp-Is obviously have them, but I don't know if it was established in canon that Imp-IIs have repulsorlifts. Star destroyers are built in space so they shouldn't have to take off from planets.
But of course Abrams' death star destroyers have repulsorlifts. Abrams must think all capital ships can land on planets, even if severely damaged. Even exploded Death Star wreckage can soft land on planets.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | The lack of shields in atmosphere was mentioned, I believe, In Rogue One when the Star Destroyer was hanging over Jedha. Or I read it. That Star Destroyer did not have its shields up either, but it constantly had TIE sentries patrolling and other ships in transit (as well as probably gunners with their fingers on the triggers). The Sith ships obviously didn't have that, as they were not expecting a bunch of ships to randomly show up and start battling them.
Thus the no shields in atmosphere was already established elsewhere. I know I either read it or heard it somewhere in the new trilogy. |
The simpler explanation for that would’ve been that the SD was loading its cargo of magic crystals, and thus couldn’t have its shields up. |
Yes, that is the reason in RO. They were loading the last of the crystals and Imperial personnel from Jedha. It wasn't because shields don't function in air. Even droidekas have shields.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | And they can't even leave atmosphere without the navigational signal? |
Yes, apparently point up and setting forward would do no good.
Why they waited in atmosphere when they could go up at the very beginning to protect the planet from any potential attack?
| Whill wrote: | | And why can't the death star destroyers use shields in the atmosphere? Just to explain how they easily get shredded after Lando's hodge-podge cavalry of Core World citizens show up in the final battle? |
They mentioned in the movie that "weird lightning storms and magnetic anomalies" made shields inoperable.
...
| Quote: | | Exegol. The concept of Exegol as a hidden, unreachable place becomes unbelievable when we see how many people have reached it. |
Yeah. Kessel was hidden - located inside the nebula, with a very narrow access path. Exogol is in open space. This whole flight through the red cloud and then jumping again to the planet itself is illogical. |
Thanks, Darklighter. So the lightning, etc. of specifically Exegol is the atmospheric reason provided that shields can't be used. I'll have to edit my post. Even though I was trying not to think, I remember on my first viewing thinking at one point, Why doesn't this fleet just go up into space? I know the path to the system is choked with space anomalies that ships need navigational guidance, but it not like those space conditions would come right up to the planet's orbit in its star system. There should be plenty of free space around the planet. My objection to them not going to space lessened when they had the "ground assault" on the star destroyer because it was a cool scene (despite it not making logical sense).
It would seem that's why Abrams contrived the whole limitation of the ships not being able to fly straight up into space without the magic signal, just to make this ground mission on the star destroyer possible, with cool alien horses. And then no shields in Exegol's atmosphere is how hundreds of death star destroyers could be destroyed so easily by everyone and their uncle with a spaceship. So we are still left with the fact that it is silly that the ships can't fly into space without some signal and that the signal can only be sent from one source at a time, yet that source can be changed around.
You hit the nail on the head - The ships had plenty of time from when the busted through the ice to elevate to space, long before there was any danger of an attack.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Quote: | | Lightspeed skipping is a shark jump. What exactly is lightspeed skipping? Is it going to random locations? If lightspeed skipping is almost suicidal, |
LS is a JJ's idea to show several exotic locations in 10 seconds.
Lightspeed skipping in "cloud city" and "rocky" location it seems that Falcon went through the solid objects.
...
| Quote: | | Lightspeed tracking? When the Falcon did the lightspeed skipping, it was tracked through hyperspace by tie fighters multiple times. What the what? In the last film the 'lightspeed tracker' was a dedicated system on a single gigantic capital ship. Did the First Order spend the past year miniaturizing the tech and updating all its ships with it, down to every little TIE fighter?! |
They could have hacked Falcon's nav comp and draw the data in real time from there. Other explanation would be lousy, imho. |
Interesting fan explanation for the tracking issue. Since the ships were going in and out of hyperspace, regular wifi wouldn't cut it. So navicomputers are holonet-capable and FO TIE pilots are excellent slicers? Unfortunately the tracking explanation still doesn't defend how absurd the whole thing is in the first place. Like you indicated, lightshark jumping was miraculously "skipping" solid objects.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Quote: | | The Force unleashed! Rey and Kylo Ren doing the Force tug of war with the transport (with full thrusters blasting) was just ridiculous. This isn't a little lightsaber telekinesis like in the previous two films. And Rey's epic accidental Force lightning destruction of the transport is over-the-top absurd. |
It's like wild magic effect due to spell control failure. And now using the Force kills, because you spent own's life force to do things. It's no longer "you must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship." I know now what was the most important thing in the Jedi Temple located near the youngling's training quarters - 24/7 ER division for medical assistance.
Obviously also the failure in the understanding the concept of the Force. |
LOL. I would have to say Abrams either fails to understand the concepts of the Force and a lot of other things, or just doesn't care. It is probably a combination fo the two.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Quote: | | According to TRoS, the power that Force ghosts have is to continue having the same exact power they had in physical life. |
Even more as: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” |
Yeah but there are different kinds of power. If Force ghosts were more powerful in every way than when they were living, you wouldn't need any living Jedi Order. Even as a little kid I knew Obi-Wan didn't mean more powerful in every way. Obi-Wan did not have the power to help Luke against Vader in TESB, and he told Luke that. Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't help Luke in RotJ. If a ghost can levitate an X-Wing then they could have pushed Palpatine around.
How did Obi-Wan exhibit his power as a ghost? He told Luke to run after he died. He could fly with Luke in a one-man fighter and help him destroy the Death Star. He can appear to him on different planets and tell him where to get more Jedi training and explain backstory. Obi-Wan did not have that power in life, the power to communicate from the spirit realm to anywhere in the galaxy. Obi-Wan was sure that Vader wouldn't know about the power to become a Force ghost, so he told him he couldn't possibly imagine the power Obi-Wan would gain in death.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Now imagine feeling this way since 1999. |
Yeah, I do feel sorry for you buddy, but it is hard for me to empathize too much because TRoS is unprecedented in the number of issues. At least you'll always have the CT and this game, right? |
Well it's in the eye of the beholder. I still find the prequels to be worse films, even if the plot holes in TROS make the Chicxulub Crater look small. What I really hate is how much the stories have been explained and prescribed. Star Wars used to have a lot more room in which to play out "No one can say that didn't happen" stories with our action figures. If they didn't want the new movies to be about Luke et al, they should have left those characters well enough alone. Then maybe make a standalone movie about Luke et al set between the trilogies.
| Quote: | | Grimace wrote: | | I don't have to imagine. |
I know you aren't a fan of the PT. But you are a much bigger fan of the Disney films than TS is.
|
In that I give the prequels a low failing grade and the sequels a grade hovering somewhere between a high failing and low passing grade, yes. But then people act like I'm equating the sequels with Citizen Cane and want to throw me on the fire. I'd probably give the Abrams films a 50 something percent, and the Jonson film a 65% or so. I look upon SOLO the same way as Ewok Adventures. It's best accepted as in-universe tall tales and rumors told about Han, Chewie and Lando, and not necessarily what actually happened. Course I think Rogue One is perhaps better than ESB or ROTJ. I do not give ESB quite the same artistic praises that most fans do. I think that became fashionable due to CLERKS. Now, ESB is my favorite movie to re-watch or collect merch from, but that's not the same thing as my opinion about which film(s) the best piece(s) of art.
As I dug through Wikipedia, I discovered that Abrams hasn't dome much I approve of other than Regarding Henry and Gone Fishin'. And like, the first half season or so of LOST. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Darklighter79
Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: |
Cloud City is the size of some capital ships. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Grimace was saying that the tech didn't exist for artificial environments to survive in atmospheres, just that the Imp SD couldn't in the EU. |
Well it surpasses most of capital in that era in size (close to SSD based on Wookipedia data). What I meant if WEG had been around when prequels and spin-offs came out (capital ships easily entering the atmosphere), they would have probably retconed this and some other things (hyperspace travel times).
| Whill wrote: | Thanks, Darklighter. So the lightning, etc. of specifically Exegol is the atmospheric reason provided that shields can't be used. I'll have to edit my post. Even though I was trying not to think, I remember on my first viewing thinking at one point, Why doesn't this fleet just go up into space? I know the path to the system is choked with space anomalies that ships need navigational guidance, but it not like those space conditions would come right up to the planet's orbit in its star system. There should be plenty of free space around the planet. My objection to them not going to space lessened when they had the "ground assault" on the star destroyer because it was a cool scene (despite it not making logical sense).
It would seem that's why Abrams contrived the whole limitation of the ships not being able to fly straight up into space without the magic signal, just to make this ground mission on the star destroyer possible, with cool alien horses. And then no shields in Exegol's atmosphere is how hundreds of death star destroyers could be destroyed so easily by everyone and their uncle with a spaceship. So we are still left with the fact that it is silly that the ships can't fly into space without some signal and that the signal can only be sent from one source at a time, yet that source can be changed around.
You hit the nail on the head - The ships had plenty of time from when the busted through the ice to elevate to space, long before there was any danger of an attack. |
Starship shields should protect against much more dangerous hazards that can be encountered in space (radiation, asteroids, neutrino bursts, solar flares, ect) but here a planetary small storm made them inoperable. The same storm did not pose any threat to humans on the surface nor any other systems of a vehicle/starship or even hand held weapons.
But even if we accept it, shouldn't Paplatine protect the Exogol in the same way Scarif was?
| Whill wrote: | | Darklighter79 wrote: | | They could have hacked Falcon's nav comp and draw the data in real time from there. Other explanation would be lousy, imho. |
Interesting fan explanation for the tracking issue. Since the ships were going in and out of hyperspace, regular wifi wouldn't cut it. So navicomputers are holonet-capable and FO TIE pilots are excellent slicers? Unfortunately the tracking explanation still doesn't defend how absurd the whole thing is in the first place. Like you indicated, lightshark jumping was miraculously "skipping" solid objects. |
This would also make the Last Jedi tracking logical. Original explanation that the destination point of the target was provided is tricky. It's like tracking a fugitive that jumped on a train. Sure you know where the train is heading, but along the way, the fugitive may hit the emergency stop and leave the train or use the railroad switch to change course.
| Whill wrote: | | Yeah but there are different kinds of power. If Force ghosts were more powerful in every way than when they were living, you wouldn't need any living Jedi Order. Even as a little kid I knew Obi-Wan didn't mean more powerful in every way. Obi-Wan did not have the power to help Luke against Vader in TESB, and he told Luke that. Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't help Luke in RotJ. If a ghost can levitate an X-Wing then they could have pushed Palpatine around. |
Well, they gain insight in the Force and understanding far beyond what they knew before. And here's the funny part, they can inspire, show the choices but do not interfere. Why? Maybe because it is important that any living should choose his/her path alone. Just like the Force itself - id does not decide for you, but if you quiet your mind, you may...see more.
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't think the contents of TROS were ever meant to make sense per se. It's back to TFA's, where the plot is the same as that of an amusement park fun house. JJ Abrams just anted to string together a bunch of "cool" scenes, not tell a specific story within a known setting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I think Rogue One is perhaps better than ESB or ROTJ. I do not give ESB quite the same artistic praises that most fans do. I think that became fashionable due to CLERKS. |
I agree about Rogue One and TESB.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Now, ESB is my favorite movie to re-watch or collect merch from, but that's not the same thing as my opinion about which film(s) the best piece(s) of art. |
Seeing the 4K versions of the classic films on Disney+ has rekindled my love affair with them.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | If they didn't want the new movies to be about Luke et al, they should have left those characters well enough alone. Then maybe make a standalone movie about Luke et al set between the trilogies. |
I'm ok with Luke et al being supporting characters to the next generation, but of course that doesn't mean any old thing will do. And it is still unacceptable for the plot of the first two films to depend on Leia not being a Jedi, just to introduce a retcon in the third one that Leia was trained as a Jedi 30 years ago. In my post-RotJ setting, the sins of Disney are erased.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I don't think the contents of TROS were ever meant to make sense per se. It's back to TFA's, where the plot is the same as that of an amusement park fun house. JJ Abrams just anted to string together a bunch of "cool" scenes, not tell a specific story within a known setting. |
I wish I had a strong argument against this statement, but I don't. I have resigned myself to the sad fact that Abrams really didn't care too much about making it make sense. He cared about it making money, and it did.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | As I dug through Wikipedia, I discovered that Abrams hasn't dome much I approve of other than Regarding Henry and Gone Fishin'. And like, the first half season or so of LOST. |
Abrams co-created and coproduced my favorite TV Show, Fringe. He directed three TFA and three other movies I enjoyed. After TRoS I definitely do not hold him to the same regard. I'm worried about this five year deal he just signed with Warner Brothers.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Last edited by Whill on Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:19 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Well, they gain insight in the Force and understanding far beyond what they knew before. And here's the funny part, they can inspire, show the choices but do not interfere. Why? Maybe because it is important that any living should choose his/her path alone. Just like the Force itself - id does not decide for you, but if you quiet your mind, you may...see more. |
I don't know. Ghost Obi-Wan was emphatic to Luke about not discontinuing his training and going to Bespin.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Well it surpasses most of capital in that era in size (close to SSD based on Wookipedia data). What I meant if WEG had been around when prequels and spin-offs came out (capital ships easily entering the atmosphere), they would have probably retconed this and some other things (hyperspace travel times). |
Probably.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Starship shields should protect against much more dangerous hazards that can be encountered in space (radiation, asteroids, neutrino bursts, solar flares, ect) but here a planetary small storm made them inoperable. The same storm did not pose any threat to humans on the surface nor any other systems of a vehicle/starship or even hand held weapons. |
Good point. I was just acknowledging that a reason why the shields couldn't be used in atmo was stated in the film, not that it was a particularly good reason.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | But even if we accept it, shouldn't Paplatine protect the Exogol in the same way Scarif was? |
Exactly. Palpatine left Exegol and the entire Sith forces way too vulnerable.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I don't think the contents of TROS were ever meant to make sense per se. It's back to TFA's, where the plot is the same as that of an amusement park fun house. JJ Abrams just anted to string together a bunch of "cool" scenes, not tell a specific story within a known setting. |
Agreed. The only things I've seen of Abrams' work are the 2009 Star Trek movie (which I had HUGE issues with until Neil deGrasse Tyson said in Cosmos 2014 that black holes theoretically might very well be gateways to other universes), TFA and TRoS. While I had my issues with Star Trek 2009 and TFA on my first viewings, I eventually grew to at least tolerate them. I still have issues with Abrams not understanding that you can't look across lightyears of distance in real time, like Spock seeing Vulcan go bye-bye from another solar system or everyone on Takodana seeing Hosnian Prime getting blown up from across the entire frickin' galaxy, but at least those were not fatal flaws for their respective movies.
But TRoS went the opposite way with me; my dislike of this film has only grown over time, not diminished. The major reason for that was that TRoS had way too many flaws to ever reconcile.
As soon as I saw the hyperspace skipping scene in the theater, I thought "wait, this totally contradicts what was said in TLJ about hyperspace tracking" and began hoping against hope that more such silliness would not ensue during the rest of the movie.
For all the reasons that Whill described in his posts, that hope was in vain.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Much to grok, but my first impression is that this validated my decision to not see them film / wait to see it on Disney+. |
I have similar feelings. TRoS is the only Star wars movie I didn't like enough to see it more than once in the movie theater. I posted here in another thread a few weeks ago that I was going to see it a second time (and this was right after about 1,900 theaters across the country stopped showing Ep 9), but ultimately I couldn't bring myself to watch it again. I'll likely buy the BluRay just to complete my Star Wars movie collection, but I know I won't enjoy TRoS as much as any other Star Wars movie.
What a disappointing way to end the Skywalker Saga.   
_________________
Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JJ turned it into The Palpatine Saga, which was an odd move for Disney to allow IMO.
At least now I can insist Luke isn't dead. He teleported away at the end of TLJ. Much as one can teleport a lightsaber or necklace, he force-teleported himself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In fairness, there is EU precedent for teleportation:
-Timothy Zahn introduced it as an ability of the Aing-Tii monks in VotF.
-The Jedi Master An’ya Kuro appeared to have the power of teleportation.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | In fairness, there is EU precedent for teleportation:
-Timothy Zahn introduced it as an ability of the Aing-Tii monks in VotF.
-The Jedi Master An’ya Kuro appeared to have the power of teleportation. |
Fair, but EU precedents don't necessarily make a good movie. The EU also resurrected Palpatine. Well, to be completely correct, a comic book resurrected Palpatine, and then that comic book was retroactively made one of the founding continuities of the EU. And then that resurrection was hardly ever referred to again.
To be fair, I actually have a sort of 'Force translocation' in my SWU too. But it only works in one specific nebula in a satellite galaxy, so it has no real bearing on the verisimilitude of the main Star Wars galaxy. The nebula is the origin of the beings that later became known as the Celestials, and the nebula was created by the overuse of pre-hyperdrive FTL that used subspace. Long after the race that became the Celestials were gone, another species arose there and their priests figured out a way with the Force to open wormholes to travel along a subspace trail from one planet to another, which is how a technologically primitive species built a civilization that spanned multiple star systems in the nebula. But I see the portals as requiring a big production with lots of concentration, probably by multiple Force-users concentrating their focus on it together, with lots of swirling lights. And then all the Force users must walk in together to follow the trail and come out the other end to complete the transit.
In the film, Rey acts like she is going to go through with Palpatine's plan to kill him so he can possess her. She raises Anakin's lightsaber (with blade extended) above her hand, and then hides the lightsaber behind her. Then she pulls her hand out and the lightsaber is just gone. Then elsewhere Ben (who has no lightsaber at this point) reaches behind his head and pulls out Anakin's extended lightsaber. No puff of smoke or any visual effect. It's portrayed in the film as an effortless sleight of hand trick.
What's good enough for one media isn't necessarily good enough for another. What good enough for comic books, novels and the RPG may not be good enough for movies. I've done a lot of things in my game I would not want to see in a movie. These films cost millions of dollars and are made by professionals, not just some fanboy GM doing it for fun. I have a higher standard for the films than I do my own game.
Of course, this teleportation is not the only way the Force is portrayed as magic in this film.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
I picture teleportation being a little more common, but still only accessible to specific Force disciplines or advanced alien technology. One neat source for Teleportation power concepts is the D&D 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, which has an entire discipline based on teleportation and similar mobility effects. I compiled a list in another topic of potential teleport-based powers that might be interesting to flesh out Tim Zahn's Aing-Tii concept...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sutehp wrote: | | I still have issues with Abrams not understanding that you can't look across lightyears of distance in real time, like Spock seeing Vulcan go bye-bye from another solar system or everyone on Takodana seeing Hosnian Prime getting blown up from across the entire frickin' galaxy, but at least those were not fatal flaws for their respective movies. |
Actually the planet Spock Prime was on, Delta Vega, is in the same star system as Vulcan. However, for it to be as close as it was in Spock's apparent view, Delta Vega would have to have been a moon of Vulcan or they were a double-planet system orbiting around the same star together. And if they were really that close, Vulcan being sucked up into a black hole would have been catastrophic to Delta Vega. In the original screenplay, it was a safer distance away, like Mars or Venus to Earth in our solar system. Spock saw Vulcan's destruction through a telescope. Abrams changed it in the film because looking through a telescope "wasn't very cinematic." In the novelization of the film, Spock is looking through a telescope. I'm half-tempted to read TRoS novelization to see how it tried to make sense and explain the film. TLJ was the only novelization that I didn't read (I did read Solo).
So I don't think it is so much that Abrams doesn't understand (not that he has a firm grasp of science because I don't think he does). It is more just doesn't care. It is clear that the die hard fans of these franchises are generally not the ones who make or break a film's success. It is the casual fans and general film goers, which are a much larger percentage of the audience. The two Abrams directed Trek movies are by far the most successful of the series, because they reach the common movie goer who doesn't understand cosmology and don't know any better anyway. This is what I am talking about when I say "the lowest common denominator" about TRoS, but it applies to his other films too. Abrams alienates some of the "higher" fans, but it doesn't matter because their money isn't really needed. He could have worked harder and made a better film that worked for a lot more of us (and made even more money overall), but he went the lazy route.
However, I have no issue with the Spock Prime thing because him viewing Vulcan's destruction from another planet was only showed as a part of his mind meld with Kirk. Memories, even Vulcan ones, are colored and exaggerated by emotions attacked to them. He could been looking through a telescope when it really happened, but the telescope was absent in the memory because Spock felt like he was watching it up close. The emotion of that was visibly transferred to Kirk in the film.
The TFA hyperlight weapon that can attack systems remotely and tear holes in the space-time continuum so that it is visible everywhere in the galaxy is a major eyeroll and unnecessary escalation of scale from the good ol' fashion Death Stars from the classic film - Surely there are super weapon middle grounds between the Death Star and the Starkiller, right? I'm not sure if that is the worst offense to my disbelief suspension of TFA, but that is up there for sure. Its worst effect was making Abrams feel that he had to top the Starkiller in TRoS, and having hundreds of death star destroyers that can blow up hundreds of planets in hundreds of separate star systems simultaneously does top it (if they can only get a navigational signal to guide them). Even for Star Wars, it's so over the top that the demonstration of the danger of this threat in TRoS is still one measly little planet being destroyed.
I definitely am over Abrams as a writer/director. I enjoyed MI3, his two Trek films, and TFA, which did do a lot of things right. Super 8 was ok. But now with TRoS, Toto has ripped away the current revealing the man operating the wizard. Then Toto savagely mauled the man, and I had to witness the grisly event four times.
I'm not saying I'm never going to give another movie of his a chance, but I will certainly not be getting my hopes up or expect a good movie. His production company has signed a new deal with Warner Brothers and I fear that they are hoping he will revitalize the DC superhero brand. I have a bad feeling about this. #ReleaseTheSnyderCut
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
