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Learning the Force
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:12 pm    Post subject: Learning the Force Reply with quote

I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere and I missed it but I want to make sure I have it clear how characters can acquire Force skills in 1st Edition.

So, if I'm reading the text correctly, there are two ways for a character to acquire Force skills.

The first is at character creation.

The second method is for a character to find a teacher, a master who has dice in Force skills, to teach them the Force skills. Any character can learn Force skills this way. The character can learn a Force skill in one week's time at no cost in skill points. So in three weeks time, if the master determines the student is worthy, the student can have 1D in each of the Force skills. Of course the character must meet certain criteria, one of which is to have no dark side points. After characters learn a skill they must spend skill points to improve it. The master can teach the student up to the master's skill level at regular cost. Then the cost is doubled unless they find a new master who is more knowledgeable.

Do I understand it correctly?


Last edited by Narmer on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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griff
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds about right to me.
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thanks. It just surprised me that a beginning character with Force skills could essentially turn around and immediately teach other characters the Force.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After 1 week's training (and it could be more or less, GM fiat) the PC learns ONE Force skill at 1D (usually Control, if it is a Jedi teacher). After a prescribed period of time (by the GM, via NPC teacher), possibly a week, possibly a year, the teacher will teach the student a second Force skill (with no skill point cost) at 1D (usually Sense). Again, after a period of time, the teacher will teach them Alter at 1D, at no skill point cost.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narmer wrote:
Ok, thanks. It just surprised me that a beginning character with Force skills could essentially turn around and immediately teach other characters the Force.


I believe the rules state the teacher must have at least 3D in a skill to teach it, and can only teach it up to his own skill level.

I know the Rules Companion states the teacher must be a MASTER, with 7D in a Force skill. Implying that a Jedi Master would have 7D Control, 7D Sense, and 7D Alter. In the fan Galaxy Guides for Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, the authors of those seem to have lowered the Jedi Master requirement to 6D in each, as no master has less than 6D in all three skills.

In my personal head-rules, a Jedi Knight must have a minimum of 4D in all three, while a Jedi Master must have 7D in all three. I rationalize this by the fact that 4D in a skill (ability +skill) is considered a 'professional level' of that skill, and a character template cannot start higher than 6D in a skill (4D in ability and 2D in the skill).
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
Narmer wrote:
Ok, thanks. It just surprised me that a beginning character with Force skills could essentially turn around and immediately teach other characters the Force.


I believe the rules state the teacher must have at least 3D in a skill to teach it, and can only teach it up to his own skill level.

I know the Rules Companion states the teacher must be a MASTER, with 7D in a Force skill. Implying that a Jedi Master would have 7D Control, 7D Sense, and 7D Alter. In the fan Galaxy Guides for Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, the authors of those seem to have lowered the Jedi Master requirement to 6D in each, as no master has less than 6D in all three skills.

In my personal head-rules, a Jedi Knight must have a minimum of 4D in all three, while a Jedi Master must have 7D in all three. I rationalize this by the fact that 4D in a skill (ability +skill) is considered a 'professional level' of that skill, and a character template cannot start higher than 6D in a skill (4D in ability and 2D in the skill).


As far as I can find, the 1e core book doesn't give a minimum number of dice to be a teacher. That was part of my surprise. It makes more sense to me if the master is more experienced but the RAW doesn't appear to enforce it.

ThrorII wrote:
After 1 week's training (and it could be more or less, GM fiat) the PC learns ONE Force skill at 1D (usually Control, if it is a Jedi teacher). After a prescribed period of time (by the GM, via NPC teacher), possibly a week, possibly a year, the teacher will teach the student a second Force skill (with no skill point cost) at 1D (usually Sense). Again, after a period of time, the teacher will teach them Alter at 1D, at no skill point cost.


And right, the timeline is all up to the master.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narmer wrote:
As far as I can find, the 1e core book doesn't give a minimum number of dice to be a teacher. That was part of my surprise. It makes more sense to me if the master is more experienced but the RAW doesn't appear to enforce it.


Like I said, as far as I can recall. I didn't look it up, but that was my recollection. I know the RC has a 7D minimum.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any charaxcter that learn the force later on, meaning any non force user template. will be much more powerful than anyone starting out as a force user.

so learning the force is the way to go.
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Any charaxcter that learn the force later on, meaning any non force user template. will be much more powerful than anyone starting out as a force user.

so learning the force is the way to go.


That's one of the reasons I wanted to be sure I was clear on the learning/teaching rules. If you are a non-Force user who can find a master later it seems like you would have an advantage over a character who started with Force skills.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Any charaxcter that learn the force later on, meaning any non force user template. will be much more powerful than anyone starting out as a force user.

so learning the force is the way to go.


Yeah, I think it is a little more fair to the Force characters if they DON'T take the 1D-2D-3D hit to attributes/abilities at character generation, just give them the Force skill(s) at 1D for free. But make them pay for upgraded Force skills through their 7D starting skills.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Any charaxcter that learn the force later on, meaning any non force user template. will be much more powerful than anyone starting out as a force user.

so learning the force is the way to go.


Yeah, I think it is a little more fair to the Force characters if they DON'T take the 1D-2D-3D hit to attributes/abilities at character generation, just give them the Force skill(s) at 1D for free. But make them pay for upgraded Force skills through their 7D starting skills.



I fullyagree, thinking that if ALL characters have 7D skills and 18D attributes, the "price" the jedi pays is not "loss of prowess" but more narrow focus on skills.

If they start with 1D in all three force skills this is 3D skills dice spent, leaving "only" 4D left for skills.

a great balance I think
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another alternative which has been talked about a lot here is to make The Force a 7th attribute. Most characters have 0D in The Force. A character can start with 1D in The Force and that only takes 1D away from the 18D attributes. Then the three Force skills default to 1D and can be raised from there with skill dice at char gen or skill points after play begins.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Another alternative which has been talked about a lot here is to make The Force a 7th attribute. Most characters have 0D in The Force. A character can start with 1D in The Force and that only takes 1D away from the 18D attributes. Then the three Force skills default to 1D and can be raised from there with skill dice at char gen or skill points after play begins.


This too.!!!!!!
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
ThrorII wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Any charaxcter that learn the force later on, meaning any non force user template. will be much more powerful than anyone starting out as a force user.

so learning the force is the way to go.


Yeah, I think it is a little more fair to the Force characters if they DON'T take the 1D-2D-3D hit to attributes/abilities at character generation, just give them the Force skill(s) at 1D for free. But make them pay for upgraded Force skills through their 7D starting skills.



I fullyagree, thinking that if ALL characters have 7D skills and 18D attributes, the "price" the jedi pays is not "loss of prowess" but more narrow focus on skills.

If they start with 1D in all three force skills this is 3D skills dice spent, leaving "only" 4D left for skills.

a great balance I think


Actually, I meant a new Force character could have 18D in attributes, 7D in skills, and 1D in one to three Force skills (ie: 1D in Sense, 1D in Control, 1D in Alter) depending on the Template (some only get 1D Sense, some get 1D in Sense and 1D in Control, etc.). The player then must decide if he is going to allocate those 7D of skill dice towards regular skills, or Force skills. The 2D allotment cap is still in effect.

Hypothetically, a Failed Jedi (whose template starts with 1D Control and 1D Sense), after allocating skill dice might have 3D in Sense and 3D in Control, and 3D left over to spend on regular skills (perhaps lightsaber +2D, and 1D towards another skill).

But yes, the idea being that starting Force-type characters at a couple 1D force skill for 'free' doesn't break the game, and at the same time doesn't cripple them compared to other characters, especially non-force characters who decide to learn the force.

Heck, I'd even allow the player of a Failed Jedi to use his 7D skills to start up his 3rd Force skill (Alter). So using the above example, the Failed Jedi would start with 3D Control, 3D Sense, 1D Alter, Dex+2D lightsaber, and no actual skills.
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