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Wealth Stat
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys. I'm going to seriously consider this!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should a character be allowed to spend CP on failed Wealth rolls?
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think so. I'd posted earlier that I didn't think CP or FP would be appropriate. Either 'you can afford something or you can't' was my thinking. Luck, good fortune, and the will of the Force likely won't factor much into it (the Force didn't allow Qui-Gon to suddenly be able to afford the parts he needed from Watto).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<Bump>

Been thinking about this lately. The point has been raised elsewhere that a Wealth or Funds stat is perhaps overly simplistic, but the more I think about it, the more I think it might be appropriate for a 1E / 1R&E game. In addition to many of the great ideas already suggested, here are a few of my new thoughts on the matter:
    -Treat a character's Wealth Stat as a static value for mundane purchases, where they get 3 per D in their Wealth Stat, plus any pips (Ex: A character with a Wealth Stat of 3D+2 gets 3 per D for a total of 9, plus 2 pips, for 11). Any purchase with a Purchase Difficulty less than or equal to the character's Static Funds value is considered an automatic success.

    Any item with a Purchase Difficulty above the Static Funds value may still be purchased, but the character must roll his Wealth Stat against the Difficulty. A roll that fails means the character doesn't have the funds immediately available (but may try again later, after some appropriate roleplaying, like transfering funds from another account).

    Rolls that do succeed, but by less than a certain amount inflict a negative penalty on the Wealth Stat, similar to Ionization Damage, but with permanent penalties until the Wealth Stat can be replenished.

    The two methods for replenishing a Wealth Stat will be either in the form of rewards / prizes / however the GM distributed monetary rewards previously, or characters may make Business skill rolls against a Difficulty level generated by how many times they used their Wealth Stat in the course of the game.

These are just some preliminary thoughts, and I haven't really put a lot of thought into hammering out the specifics, but let me know what you think.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
<Bump>

I'm surprised I had never posted on this thread. Looking through it I expected at least one post, but it isn't there, so here it is.

DougRed4 wrote:
Either 'you can afford something or you can't' was my thinking. Luck, good fortune, and the will of the Force likely won't factor much into it (the Force didn't allow Qui-Gon to suddenly be able to afford the parts he needed from Watto).

Either you can afford something or you can't... but it's randomly determined. Luck and good fortune do factor in whether you can afford something or not, the luck of the dice roll...

I completely fail to see how the Funds/Wealth stat is in any way simpler than buying things for a finite price with finite money. That is truly either 'you can afford it or you can't'.

There is still some randomization applicable for some purchases in RAW and in my game.

You can possibly use some skills to find available items for purchase, such as bureaucracy, business, streetwise, investigation, search, computer programming, etc. If the price is open for negotiation, then you can use the bargain rules and the price may go up or down from a base price.

If you don't have enough money to buy something and want to securing financing, I can see rolling business for seeing if can get a loan, how much, and at what financing terms. Or maybe even roll a derived "credit score" stat. But the outcome of the roll is a finite amount of money with specific repayment terms. But this wouldn't be done with most purchases in the game.

The closest I can see coming to a funds/wealth stat kind of concept is something like a character has to seek out and work temp jobs, but the time elapsed isn't important to be roleplayed out so the GM might roll, or have the player roll, a single roll vs. a chart the GM made to see how much total money was made, but the outcome is a finite amount of money.

These are exceptions rather than the rule. A lot of times in my game, no randomness will apply to purchases. Haggling is not even an option in all situations. If I go into retail stores on Earth, I can't haggle over the fixed prices. Star Wars retail stores are usually going to be the same. You either have enough money to buy something (or a sum of things) for a fixed (total) price, or you don't have enough.

With a wealth stat, it is random on an ongoing basis if a character has enough money to buy anything. I could botch a roll to buy a comlink, but then the next round I want to buy a blaster, and I make that roll so I can buy that? How does that make any sense?

CRMcNeill wrote:
Been thinking about this lately. The point has been raised elsewhere that a Wealth or Funds stat is perhaps overly simplistic, but the more I think about it, the more I think it might be appropriate for a 1E / 1R&E game. In addition to many of the great ideas already suggested, here are a few of my new thoughts on the matter:
    -Treat a character's Wealth Stat as a static value for mundane purchases, where they get 3 per D in their Wealth Stat, plus any pips (Ex: A character with a Wealth Stat of 3D+2 gets 3 per D for a total of 9, plus 2 pips, for 11). Any purchase with a Purchase Difficulty less than or equal to the character's Static Funds value is considered an automatic success.

    Any item with a Purchase Difficulty above the Static Funds value may still be purchased, but the character must roll his Wealth Stat against the Difficulty. A roll that fails means the character doesn't have the funds immediately available (but may try again later, after some appropriate roleplaying, like transfering funds from another account).

    Rolls that do succeed, but by less than a certain amount inflict a negative penalty on the Wealth Stat, similar to Ionization Damage, but with permanent penalties until the Wealth Stat can be replenished.

    The two methods for replenishing a Wealth Stat will be either in the form of rewards / prizes / however the GM distributed monetary rewards previously, or characters may make Business skill rolls against a Difficulty level generated by how many times they used their Wealth Stat in the course of the game.

These are just some preliminary thoughts, and I haven't really put a lot of thought into hammering out the specifics, but let me know what you think.

OK, so you don't roll for mundane purchases. But there is no limit to how many mundane purchases you can get automatically without rolling? I could keep "buying" a comlink every round because it is mundane until I've "bought" 100 comlinks? Why would any GM replace this with 'you have C money and you can buy X comlinks before your money runs out'. That's simple.

I do understand that the point of the wealth stat is to not keep track of money for purchases, but there are other ways to address that without making a character's funds at any given moment completely random. I think there is a happy medium between nickel and diming every little purchase, and credit amounts are always random (except for mundane items which are automatic). The wealth stat is more complex that simple arithmetic, and too random. The funds/wealth stat concept just seems to be a way overboard solution, worse than the problem it tries to address.

Sorry this isn't very supportive, but those are my thoughts.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your memory is close, but it was two different topics, this one and "A Creditless Economy." I found the other one while researching for this post, so I kinda already knew you weren't a fan.

Wink
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Either you can afford something or you can't... but it's randomly determined. Luck and good fortune do factor in whether you can afford something or not, the luck of the dice roll...

That's why I'm proposing a middle ground, where purchases below a certain amount are pretty much automatic, but with more expensive purchases, the greater the likelihood that the character won't have enough money immediately available, for any of a number of reasons. There are other alternatives methods for the dice roll, too.

Quote:
There is still some randomization applicable for some purchases in RAW and in my game.

You can possibly use some skills to find available items for purchase, such as bureaucracy, business, streetwise, investigation, search, computer programming, etc. If the price is open for negotiation, then you can use the bargain rules and the price may go up or down from a base price.

If you don't have enough money to buy something and want to securing financing, I can see rolling business for seeing if can get a loan, how much, and at what financing terms. Or maybe even roll a derived "credit score" stat. But the outcome of the roll is a finite amount of money with specific repayment terms. But this wouldn't be done with most purchases in the game.

All good ideas, but I can see them all being applicable to a Wealth Stat if properly applied.

And of course, I'm always looking for ways to improve the utility of Knowledge skills, so providing an incentive to characters to invest in the Business skill is a net positive, IMO.

Quote:
With a wealth stat, it is random on an ongoing basis if a character has enough money to buy anything. I could botch a roll to buy a comlink, but then the next round I want to buy a blaster, and I make that roll so I can buy that? How does that make any sense?

So, perhaps take the roll out entirely and treat the Wealth Stat effectively like a Static Defense against financial damage? Or maybe just keep 1D (the Wild Die) to represent unexpected financial shortfalls?

Quote:
OK, so you don't roll for mundane purchases. But there is no limit to how many mundane purchases you can get automatically without rolling? I could keep "buying" a comlink every round because it is mundane until I've "bought" 100 comlinks? Why would any GM replace this with 'you have C money and you can buy X comlinks before your money runs out'. That's simple.

That's something of a Reductio Ad Absurdum, don't you think? The obvious solution for the GM is 1) "stare in 'are you f-ing kidding me' at the player for a few seconds, then 2) rule that the effective cost of buying 100 comlinks one at a time has the same Funds DC as buying a case of 100 one time, +5 because most suppliers offer a discount for buying in bulk.

Quote:
Sorry this isn't very supportive, but those are my thoughts.

Even disapproving thoughts can be helpful and constructive if properly expressed.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
OK, so you don't roll for mundane purchases. But there is no limit to how many mundane purchases you can get automatically without rolling? I could keep "buying" a comlink every round because it is mundane until I've "bought" 100 comlinks? Why would any GM replace this with 'you have C money and you can buy X comlinks before your money runs out'. That's simple.

That's something of a Reductio Ad Absurdum, don't you think? The obvious solution for the GM is 1) "stare in 'are you f-ing kidding me' at the player for a few seconds, then 2) rule that the effective cost of buying 100 comlinks one at a time has the same Funds DC as buying a case of 100 one time, +5 because most suppliers offer a discount for buying in bulk.

Quote:
Sorry this isn't very supportive, but those are my thoughts.

I would have not replied since I had nothing more to add to the discussion until the accusation of the logical fallacy.

Even disapproving thoughts can be helpful and constructive

Sorry, that was not Reductio Ad Absurdum. I did ask questions if that's how it worked, not making statements reducing something you said to something more absurd. And you can hopefully forgive the questions because it is your MO for in-depth mechanics design that address every possible contingency. I'm the one who generally relies more on GM fiat to deal with absurd/outlier situations not covered by a rule. "Um, no, you can't do that even though the rule doesn't specifically say you can't," said Whill on several occasions.

I do admit that I personally feel the entire concept of replacing money completely with rolls to be rather unnecessary. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And for the sake of the this discussion with others here, I was sincere in inquiring how is a Wealth/Funds stat more simple? Have you had the experience where players keeping track of credit balances is difficult, and/or arguments happen in the player group about character money balances? I've never ran into any trouble with it. Maybe an occasional, 'Oops I forgot to subtract the credits for that blaster I bought, so I don't have enough to bribe this NPC after all', but it has never caused any problems in my game. I may have even said, 'Don't worry about it this time, let's just say you have just enough money so we don't have to do a do-over' and move on with the story. That hasn't even come up for me very often over the years.

I feel that applying GM fiat even extremely beyond what I do, where the GM just decides at any moment how much money a characters has or if they can afford something, would still be better than rolling dice to see if you have money or can afford something. There, I took my own method to an absurd level I wouldn't do, and I still like it better than rolling Wealth/Funds stat for every purchase. I'm just saying. But to each GM, his own.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

And for the sake of the this discussion with others here, I was sincere in inquiring how is a Wealth/Funds stat more simple? Have you had the experience where players keeping track of credit balances is difficult, and/or arguments happen in the player group about character money balances? I've never ran into any trouble with it. Maybe an occasional, 'Oops I forgot to subtract the credits for that blaster I bought, so I don't have enough to bribe this NPC after all', but it has never caused any problems in my game. I may have even said, 'Don't worry about it this time, let's just say you have just enough money so we don't have to do a do-over' and move on with the story. That hasn't even come up for me very often over the years.


For me, it is less that it is difficult and more that it is annoying... penny-pinching your way across the galaxy. Wealth stats let you be a bit more freewheeling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
For me, it is less that it is difficult and more that it is annoying... penny-pinching your way across the galaxy.

Like I said, there are happy mediums between penny pinching across the galaxy and the 'randomizing credit purse'. The following is from a 2017 thread. I'll just let it speak for itself.

Whill wrote:
To avoid dealing with mundane costs, I run tramp freighter campaigns this way:

Individual character funds and a possible joint business fund are kept track of with exact credits. Payments received for in-adventure drop point deliveries and other job completion, selling stuff, finding treasure, etc. go into these funds. These funds are used to pay for new equipment and weapons, ship repairs and upgrades, loan shark payments, in-adventure speculative trading, in-adventure bribes, etc. It is assumed there are other offscreen jobs that make money to cover taxes, docking bay rental fees, starship registration and licensing fees, refueling, routine ship maintenance, food and other basic supplies. So the more mundane offscreen jobs just break even with respect to covering these mundane costs, while the played-out adventures are where all the profit, risk of loss and danger are. It works well.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
And you can hopefully forgive the questions because it is your MO for in-depth mechanics design that address every possible contingency.

Certainly, and this is far from a complete rule; more of a general premise put out to provoke response and input in the pursuit of a more comprehensive mechanic. The idea here is greater simplicity along the lines of less number intensive, story-telling style approach, where the exact amount of credits a character has is less important than whether or not they have enough to do what needs to be done. I'm looking at this along similar lines as my Endurance Stat conversion for starships, where Fuel/Consumables are used narratively. So, rather than having to keep an accurate account of how credits are spent, a Wealth Stat would operate more generally, in that the exact amount was less important than whether or not the character has enough to make the purchase in question. And again, it wouldn't be a roll for every purchase, but only purchases above a certain expense, with reductions to the character's Wealth Stat being relegated to the post-game wrap-up math, except in the case of major purchases in-game that will affect the character's purchasing power in a major way. Obviously, this won't be a good fit for every style of campaign, with Tramp Freighters being the most obvious example.

EDIT: So, no, I'm not talking about randomizing every purchase, where a character can go from not having the money to buy a comlink one round, yet be able to buy a brand-new blaster the next. This will be more along the lines of a Static Defense, where a character will have reliable purchasing power up to a certain level, with a degree of randomness added in at the top to make things interesting.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Wealth Stat Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Obviously, this won't be a good fit for every style of campaign, with Tramp Freighters being the most obvious example.

That's a good point. I only run tramp freighters or rebel spec ops campaigns.

And the my rebels tend to never have much money. They are wanted criminals. Their properties has been seized. Their bank accounts and assets have been frozen. The Alliance supplies what little stuff it can, and the PCs usually have to con or steal whatever else they need. Credits have never distracted from the game.
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