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Sensible simplifications for a first REUP campaign?
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Sensible simplifications for a first REUP campaign? Reply with quote

Looking over what people have said over the years about the many editions of the game, the very first edition is regularly praised for having kept things fairly simply, which then later were needlessly complicated.

I want to give the system a try, and REUP is the most convenient way to make it accessible to players who want to read the rules themselves. But I am also a big fan of rules light games in general, so I am considering making the following simplifications.

- No advancement of Attributes.
- No specialization of Skills.
- No advantages and disadvantages to get extra skill points.
(- No Advanced Skills.)
- Also using only the skills as they were in the first edition.

The main issue I see with later editions is the length of the skill list and specializations. It really looks like it favors characters being really good at a few very narrowly defined things instead of being decent allrounders. I think a Star Wars hero should just pick up any random weapon or jump into any random ship that is sitting around nearby and do heroic stuff.
Splitting up the two piloting skills for spacecraft and planetary vehicles into 12 seems just ridiculous? Who would ever put any points in Aquatic Vehicle Operation? How often do Star Wars characters drive a boat? And the one time a GM has a cool idea for a speedboat chase, you want one of the PCs to be actually competent at it. Maybe unrealistic to use your hover speeder experience for driving a speedboat, but Star Wars is cool action, not mundane realism.

However, I am usually of the opinion that you shouldn't houserule things before you've seen how they actually work out in practice. So I am asking you if this seems like a sensible way to improve the game, or if that opens up major pitfalls that I am currently still unable to see?
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The Bissler
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know others will give you a better reply, but here's my thoughts.

My group of players played a 50 week Star Wars campaign before we embarked on our new one (both using REUP). In our first campaign, everyone was getting used to how the system worked. We used no skills specialisations, advantages and disadvantages or advanced skills.

I did allow Attribute increases (within species' limits), but the truth is, it isn't worth increasing Attributes as the cost is 10 times what it would be for an individual skill increase - how many characters have 10+ skills under a single attribute.

The one exception would be Strength attribute because that determines how much damage the character can soak up when hit. I would allow a PC to increase this (particularly if their Strength was between 2D - 3D), but I'd want them to explain how they are building towards that (lifting weights etc) as they built up the required Character Points to do that.

I can't comment about 1st edition skills, but in relation to skill increases, you're right, my players very much focussed on the skills relating to combat, namely:
Blaster, Dodge, Brawling/Melee Combat (depending on weapons carried), Vehicle Blasters, Repulsorlift Operation, Space Transports/Starship Piloting, Starship Shields, Starship Gunnery, Climbing/Jumping, Con.

Part of that was my fault as I didn't write enough other skills usage into my scenarios (part of the reason I now want to run published adventures is because I know they'll have more variety in the skill usage), and part of it was that the PCs didn't care about many of other skill categories (notably Knowledge and Technical). As GM, I'd encourage you to throw some curve balls using the unloved skills where you can so that players don't simply spam Blasters, Dodge and spacecraft skills.

With that first campaign under their belt, some of my players have now got more hands on with the shaping of their characters, with one of them designing his character from scratch. One or two have toyed with the advantages and disadvantages which I think are really good for a GM as they tend to present you with options for storylines in your campaign.

In relation to specialisations, my players are often spending Character Points on skill rolls in-game (which didn't happen much in our first campaign) and so specialisations which are cheaper to increase have suddenly become more attractive, particularly as they use the same Space Transport or Blaster type in most sessions.

My general advice though would be to keep it as simple as possible until your players have got the basics of the system - you can start introducing more elements if you (and they!) are interested in doing so, but you'll still have great fun playing the game with the system stripped right back!

Good luck - and please let us know how your campaign goes!
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: Sensible simplifications for a first REUP campaign? Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
Looking over what people have said over the years about the many editions of the game, the very first edition is regularly praised for having kept things fairly simply, which then later were needlessly complicated.

I want to give the system a try, and REUP is the most convenient way to make it accessible to players who want to read the rules themselves. But I am also a big fan of rules light games in general, so I am considering making the following simplifications.

- No advancement of Attributes.
- No specialization of Skills.
- No advantages and disadvantages to get extra skill points.
(- No Advanced Skills.)
- Also using only the skills as they were in the first edition.

The main issue I see with later editions is the length of the skill list and specializations. It really looks like it favors characters being really good at a few very narrowly defined things instead of being decent allrounders. I think a Star Wars hero should just pick up any random weapon or jump into any random ship that is sitting around nearby and do heroic stuff.
Splitting up the two piloting skills for spacecraft and planetary vehicles into 12 seems just ridiculous? Who would ever put any points in Aquatic Vehicle Operation? How often do Star Wars characters drive a boat? And the one time a GM has a cool idea for a speedboat chase, you want one of the PCs to be actually competent at it. Maybe unrealistic to use your hover speeder experience for driving a speedboat, but Star Wars is cool action, not mundane realism.

However, I am usually of the opinion that you shouldn't houserule things before you've seen how they actually work out in practice. So I am asking you if this seems like a sensible way to improve the game, or if that opens up major pitfalls that I am currently still unable to see?


The skill bloat is one of the things that made me give 1st edition a try. Although TBH I might end up switching back to R&E Rules with a skill list that I borrowed from someone on G+ a while ago for using with my solo gaming sessions.

Another option I'm doing this game is giving players 3-4 free specializations that get notated not on a specific skill, but they're like 3 things that the character is especially good at, for example one character is playing a Bounty Hunter, so he has: Bounty Hunter, Pistols, Knives, Runner. So, any time a situation comes up where one of his specializations can come into play, he gets a +1D on the skill check. With Pistols this could include shooting, buying, selling, modifying, or anything else we can think of. Bounty Hunting might give him a bonus to Negotiating Contracts, Investigation/Tracking, Law Enforcement, I would probably even give the bonus for taking down a suspect in hand to hand and cuffing them safely.

This gives each character their little knacks that they're good at while keeping my skill list short, also there's no more splitting hairs with skill progression, the skill gets raise, the specialization bonus is always +1D.

If anyone is interested, I can share the slimmed skill lists, I'm sure some people might not agree with the short list and broad skills, but I've been having fun with it playing by myself and my players seem pretty good with it since the skill names are pretty self-explanatory, there's only 1 or two that could maybe use some relabeling.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure how long the OP has been RPing, but I'd caution against promoting a party of "well rounded" PCs. Rather, the party itself would do well to have (between them) a diverse mix of skills and capabilities, if everyone is "well rounded" then no individual has a chance to really shine, where his character is the "only one" who can move the story forward.

Blaster slingers and fighter pilots will typically get lots of opportunities in most games. Young senatorial? Gambler? It's great when characters like these have opportunity to remove the obstacles that blasters and proton torpedoes cannot.

Another thing you can do is make "knowledge" cost money. PCs who lack knowledge skills (in my experience) usually just ask NPCs for the information they need. If they have to fork over an uncomfortable amount of credits (or other assets) for information each time, they might give skills like Bureaucracy or Law Enforcement or Streetwise a second look when preparing for the next play session.

However, I find that "knowledge" also makes good freebie skills once in a while (important not to overdo it). If the players gain enough familiarity with a topic (say, interacting in the underworld), then I might give them all a free pip in Streetwise for each time the party completes a major operation that involves lots of underworld interaction. I justify this on the basis that knowledge is a thing that can be more or less passively acquired without necessarily expending effort or energy.

As for piloting skills, I think that a general piloting skill is a "more correct" solution than the 2R&E rules, but I feel like it's a bit TOO oversimplified. If you don't want to house rule, I can appreciate that, and would say just make two piloting skills: one for capital ships, and one for everything else. What I feel might be a good middle ground would be to have "specializations" in starfighter, space transports and capital ships. The standard piloting skill will allow you to use speeders and other non-space craft at full effect and would allow you to pilot space craft but without adding the ship's maneuverability bonus. You may add a number of the ship's maneuverability dice up to the pilots skill code in the specialization. So, to get the full effect from, say, an A-Wing, a pilot would need 4D in Piloting: Starfighters.

Example:
Rhett Divonae has 8D in Piloting and 2D+2 in Piloting: Starfighters. When he pilots the new A-Wing, he rolls a total of 10D+2. After a while, he raises his Starfighter specialization to 4D and when piloting the same A-Wing, he rolls 12D.

Just an idea I came up with on the fly while writing this.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not everyone has to be great at everything. You don't need Leia to jump into an X-Wing to go with Luke to destroy the Death Star.
But you also don't want Luke and Leia standing at the retracted bridge and Leia saying "Sorry, I don't know how to blaster. You're own your own."

Instead of having some characters having certain skills at either 10% or 90% efficiency, I want all characters to be somewhere between 40% and 80% for most skills. Having some characters be substantially better at some things than other characters is a good thing, but I always hate it when players encounter situations that are not ideal circumstances for their character stats and take that as a signal not to engage with it at all.
Particularly in a Star Wars campaign, every character should be able to take over for another character who has to run of doing something more important.
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Odea Ionstrike
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Sensible simplifications for a first REUP campaign? Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The skill bloat is one of the things that made me give 1st edition a try. Although TBH I might end up switching back to R&E Rules with a skill list that I borrowed from someone on G+ a while ago for using with my solo gaming sessions.


Are you talking about these? How did your play go using that setup? I was skeptical at first but I slept on the idea and it is growing on me (for both solo and group play)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:

I did allow Attribute increases (within species' limits), but the truth is, it isn't worth increasing Attributes as the cost is 10 times what it would be for an individual skill increase - how many characters have 10+ skills under a single attribute.


That depends on the attribute IMO. Some are worth it even if you only have 2-3 skills, such as Per and Str. However, especially for Mech and Know, having a high attribute is just too good to pass up.

The Bissler wrote:
As GM, I'd encourage you to throw some curve balls using the unloved skills where you can so that players don't simply spam Blasters, Dodge and spacecraft skills.


Agreed. the occasional adventure where some often overlooked skills, are focused on, shows them, not to be 'one trick ponies'. Have one where they are grounded on a planet, and need to use beast riding, or swoop operations, or hover vehicle piloting.
Or a ship that is archaic, with archaic weapon.

The Bissler wrote:

My general advice though would be to keep it as simple as possible until your players have got the basics of the system - you can start introducing more elements if you (and they!) are interested in doing so, but you'll still have great fun playing the game with the system stripped right back!

Good luck - and please let us know how your campaign goes!


Agreed. Start them out small, then as they get the hands of things, gradually get more involved..

Namman wrote:
Another thing you can do is make "knowledge" cost money. PCs who lack knowledge skills (in my experience) usually just ask NPCs for the information they need. If they have to fork over an uncomfortable amount of credits (or other assets) for information each time, they might give skills like Bureaucracy or Law Enforcement or Streetwise a second look when preparing for the next play session.


That's an interesting angle.. Another thing, is make them cully favor with folks, so they have sources of info gathering they can draw on. But make them have to work to find, and Keep those contacts..

Quote:
As for piloting skills, I think that a general piloting skill is a "more correct" solution than the 2R&E rules, but I feel like it's a bit TOO oversimplified. If you don't want to house rule, I can appreciate that, and would say just make two piloting skills: one for capital ships, and one for everything else. What I feel might be a good middle ground would be to have "specializations" in starfighter, space transports and capital ships. The standard piloting skill will allow you to use speeders and other non-space craft at full effect and would allow you to pilot space craft but without adding the ship's maneuverability bonus. You may add a number of the ship's maneuverability dice up to the pilots skill code in the specialization. So, to get the full effect from, say, an A-Wing, a pilot would need 4D in Piloting: Starfighters.


That's something i've often railed against. Just because someone may be good, say at operating a car, doesn't mean he gets to just hop into a hovercraft, or onto a bike and has the same skill operating it..
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
The Bissler wrote:

I did allow Attribute increases (within species' limits), but the truth is, it isn't worth increasing Attributes as the cost is 10 times what it would be for an individual skill increase - how many characters have 10+ skills under a single attribute.


That depends on the attribute IMO. Some are worth it even if you only have 2-3 skills, such as Per and Str. However, especially for Mech and Know, having a high attribute is just too good to pass up.


Would you mind elaborating on this Garhkal because I'm concerned I'm misunderstanding something?

Here's the way I've been reading it:

DEXTERITY: 3D (10x usual cost to raise one pip)
Blaster: 3D
Dodge: 3D
Vehicle Blasters: 3D

It would cost 30 Character Points to increase Dexterity to 3D+1, whereas it would only cost 9 Character Points to increase all three skills to 3D+1.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Sensible simplifications for a first REUP campaign? Reply with quote

Odea Ionstrike wrote:
Are you talking about these? How did your play go using that setup? I was skeptical at first but I slept on the idea and it is growing on me (for both solo and group play)


That's exactly what I was talking about, thanks Odea! I'd forgotten that I shared it already.

I love the way it's working out so far. We're 1 session in with group play, and can't meet every weekend, we should be having the 2nd session either this weekend or the next. The biggest issue I've had with my current game stems from how unfamiliar I am with 1st Edition, which is why I may end up switching back to R&E rules but with my skill list just because it's what I'm familiar with.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:

Would you mind elaborating on this Garhkal because I'm concerned I'm misunderstanding something?


Yes. Let's take my Sparks character (the guy who died way back in 2002 iirc) for example.
Prior to the year he died (which is the last active cha sheet i had for him), he had
Dex 3d+1.
Brawl parry 4d, (S) Reb spec force martial art parry 7d+2,
Blaster 5d, (S) Pistols 7d+2
Dodge 7d
Running 5d
Grenade 4d+2 (S) Stun grenades 6d+2
Thrown weapons 5d+2
Vehicle blasters 4d+2

Looking at it, that's only 7 skills (10 if you include the specialties). So to up his Dex to 3d+2, it would be 30cp.
To up EACH skill would be
Brawl parry 4
Brawl parry (S) 4
Blaster 5
Blaster (S) 4
Dodge 7
Grenade 5
Grenade (S) 3
Thrown weapon 5
and vehicle blaster 4. For a total of 41cp.

So it would be easier to bank the CP to raise the attribute once every 10 sessions, than to increase each skill on its own.

Now if you had only 5 of those skills, even at the same level as above, it might be different in the cost...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I understand now! Thanks for explaining, I'll pass this on to my players!

Last edited by The Bissler on Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yora
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. I now have the impression that while those simplifications might not all be necessary, at least they won't be causing any issues.
I probably might even be able to drop some of them during an ongoing campaign if that starts looking more attractive as the game goes on.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
Not everyone has to be great at everything. You don't need Leia to jump into an X-Wing to go with Luke to destroy the Death Star.
But you also don't want Luke and Leia standing at the retracted bridge and Leia saying "Sorry, I don't know how to blaster. You're own your own."

Instead of having some characters having certain skills at either 10% or 90% efficiency, I want all characters to be somewhere between 40% and 80% for most skills. Having some characters be substantially better at some things than other characters is a good thing, but I always hate it when players encounter situations that are not ideal circumstances for their character stats and take that as a signal not to engage with it at all.
Particularly in a Star Wars campaign, every character should be able to take over for another character who has to run of doing something more important.


Yeah, I get it. But, is this something you plan on "enforcing" as the GM (by imposing some kind of limitation on the gap between highest and lowest skill or some such)? Or will you be able to do it organically, simply by introducing a large variety of scenarios that require your characters to mix it up once in a while? Basically pushing them out of their comfort zones.

How will you dictate to players where they spend their CPs?
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Yora
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that simply by having a lower number of skills that don't differentiate between ground vehicles, hover vehicles, podracers, swoops for example, or not having separate skills for Armor repair, Blaster repair, and Equipment Repair, players will automatically encounter many more situations in which their skill ratings apply.
A player who wants to improve his skill to drive landspeeders automatically makes the character better with driving all ground vehicles if there is only one Ground Vehicle Operation skill that includes all of them.
It's a simple as that.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
My point is that simply by having a lower number of skills that don't differentiate between ground vehicles, hover vehicles, podracers, swoops for example, or not having separate skills for Armor repair, Blaster repair, and Equipment Repair, players will automatically encounter many more situations in which their skill ratings apply.
A player who wants to improve his skill to drive landspeeders automatically makes the character better with driving all ground vehicles if there is only one Ground Vehicle Operation skill that includes all of them.
It's a simple as that.


My only word of caution about this approach would be that you may find your players become very proficient at piloting all sorts of vehicles very quickly. Also, by reducing the number of skills, your players have fewer places to spend their Character Points, so they may become very powerful at a range of tasks after a relatively short campaign (depending on how many Character Points you reward them with after each session). This isn't a problem if you want to recreate the high adventure of A New Hope where the PCs are real heroes who overcome obstacles with relative ease, but if you're thinking of a tougher, grittier Rogue One feel, I'd be inclined not to draw them into a single category. It's your game though!
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