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Is the Force an intelligent enity?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Is the Force an intelligent enity? Reply with quote

is it's nature light or dark?

Most would brush this off as silly, BUT

Look at how it seems the force is actually controlling the events.

if the force didn't have a "motive" a will of its own, then why would not a force user at the magnitude of Yoda (comaprable to palpy) simply save planets, use the force for things, be alerted of things like the major order 66.
they are "alerted" about the messenger that can come to morrow, or the friend in trouble tomorrow across the galaxy.

So to me it seems there is a third player in the events, the Force it self, and I am leaning to this being DARK but in a "dark phase" with a light phase comming later
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always viewed The Force as Obi-wan described it, "an energy field created by all living things." As living things, especially sentient entities, are swayed by emotion in one form or another, The Force, too, ebbs and flows between light and dark, but The Force itself is neutral. I don't see it as having an agenda or consciousness.

Whether consciously or not, those with the ability to tap into The Force augment the passions and egos that drive them while enhancing their abilities to be more than the ordinary. I believe this is why the Jedi and Sith were doomed in the end. The Jedi were too detached from the living while also interposing their perceived justice on the very ones from which they were removed, while the Sith were too focused on selfish desires and power over others. While nearly impossible for sentients to reach, a balance between the two philosophies would be, in my opinion, the best path for which to strive. Or, Force-users should simply break away and live their days fully apart from society to prevent the galactic catastrophes that always seem to follow.

But, that's just the way I look at it. The Force is like fire -- it can keep you warm, or it can burn you to a crisp.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My general opinion is that the force is somewhat aware, but not intelligent, as we think of it... it doesn't make decisions on a Character-scale, but it reacts to stimuli. I am also of the opinion that there is no "Light Side" of the Force... there is the Force, and there is the misuse of the Force, which is the Dark Side.

Someone who is Force Sensitive is aware of the Force's responses to stimuli, and can lightly influence it.

Someone with Force skills can influence the Force, aands make use of its presence and influence to do things.

A Dark Side Force user does these things as well, BUT using the Dark Side is abusing the Force to get a reaction... like, you can get your dog to bite your child, but only if you beat it first. The Force does not "like" this, which manifests as Dark Side points, but it doesn't really have a consciousness... it responds to stimuli.

IOW, using the Force is being nice to the Force and it doing nice things for you. Dark Side is abusing the Force and making it do things for you.
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
My general opinion is that the force is somewhat aware, but not intelligent, as we think of it... it doesn't make decisions on a Character-scale, but it reacts to stimuli. I am also of the opinion that there is no "Light Side" of the Force... there is the Force, and there is the misuse of the Force, which is the Dark Side.


Reaction to stimuli...I like that. I'll add that to my canon. Thanks, MrNexx.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:
I've always viewed The Force as Obi-wan described it, "an energy field created by all living things." As living things, especially sentient entities, are swayed by emotion in one form or another, The Force, too, ebbs and flows between light and dark, but The Force itself is neutral. I don't see it as having an agenda or consciousness.
...


This is pretty much where I am at on my view of the Force as well. The Force is, itself, "neutral". How a person decides to use it is what makes it "Light" or "Dark".

It's also why there is no such thing as "grey" in my Star Wars universe. There's neutral, not grey, light, and dark. Telekinesis to lift something off of a person...light. Telekinesis to drop something heavy on a person....dark. Telekinesis to push open a stuck door than cannot be physically moved....neutral. All the same power, but HOW a person uses it will depend on whether it is light, dark, or just a neutral use of the Force.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On another board, I summarized my Force idea, and someone suggested a way of viewing it: Dark-sider users are parasitic, while regular Force users are symbiotic with the Force.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I even think that there is no Light side. There is only the Force.
I would even say that the Dark Side is not actually "the Dark Side of the Force", but only the Dark Side of a person who uses the Force. The Dark Side does not make you evil. You make yourself evil, if you're using the Force or not.

As far as I am aware, the whole concept of Light Side first appeared in Knights of the Old Republic in 2003, and was first mentioned in a movie in 2015. I consider it pretty apocryphal and not part of the original concept.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
I even think that there is no Light side. There is only the Force.
I would even say that the Dark Side is not actually "the Dark Side of the Force", but only the Dark Side of a person who uses the Force. The Dark Side does not make you evil. You make yourself evil, if you're using the Force or not.

As far as I am aware, the whole concept of Light Side first appeared in Knights of the Old Republic in 2003, and was first mentioned in a movie in 2015. I consider it pretty apocryphal and not part of the original concept.



This is very much how I understand the force.

I can not see where uning a spesific tool, which forcce powers are, as being evil, it is simply tool use.

A carpenter using his hammer to drive nails into wooden planks....he usues his hammer too. Or he can take the same tool and hit someone in the head , killing them....an evil act, but is it evil becuse he used the hammer?
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one thing that is always confusing ideas of how to Force influences things is all the talk of "Destiny". It assumes that the Force has a plan and is actively involved in making this plan happen.

But a very important thing about Destiny is that it's almost entirely Vader and the Emperor talking about it, and always in the context of "do as you are told by your betters!"

In the first movie, Obi-Wan tells Luke to stay with Han and Chewie in the guard room while he goes to disable the tractor beam, saying "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine."

In Empire and Jedi, Yoda twice tells Luke "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny".

The final time that Obi-Wan uses it in Jedi, he tells Luke "You cannot escape your destiny." when Luke says he can't fight and kill Vader. Which is again a case of "do as you are told by your betters!" And very importantly, Obi-Wan is proven wrong!

Except for that last case, the Jedi masters use Destiny to simply mean "future". But not a predetermined future.
Vader and the Emperor simply use it to attempt weakening Luke's resolve by implying he has no choice but to obey them. But it never actually means anything. Again, both of them are proven wrong.

There is no such thing as Destiny in Star Wars. That is the entire point of the story of Luke and Vader. There is no predetermined future that has been set in stone by the Force, and the Force does not actively interfere to make it happen.
Sadly, many later secondary writers totally missed that part. There's at least a card game named "Destiny", a kid's cartoon "Forces of Destiny", a Clone Wars episode titled "Destiny", and the Jedi Sourcebook for FFG "Force and Destiny".
But even then, to my knowledge, you never see any cases where a lucky accident just happens to save the day. It's always a character managing to pull of something incredibly difficult at the moment it really matters, which gets attributed to a little boost from the Force. You never have a villain accidentally drop something, or something falling over and causing a distraction at the right moment, which then gets attributed to invisible help by the Force. That's just not how it works.
The only case that I can think of that could possibly qualify is that monk in Rogue One walking through stormtrooper fire without getting hit, trusting that the Force will protect him. But that's Disney Star Wars and was made after 30 years of telephone game.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion here.

Yora wrote:
As far as I am aware, the whole concept of Light Side first appeared in Knights of the Old Republic in 2003

That's debatable. In 1983, Luke tells Leia that he has to try to turn their father "back to the good side". So no, it is not the exact term "Light Side" per se, but Luke was clearly using the term to oppose "the dark side" which is mentioned a lot in the films.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YEs it's intelligent. its named BOB> Cool Cool
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Yora
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Interesting discussion here.

Yora wrote:
As far as I am aware, the whole concept of Light Side first appeared in Knights of the Old Republic in 2003

That's debatable. In 1983, Luke tells Leia that he has to try to turn their father "back to the good side". So no, it is not the exact term "Light Side" per se, but Luke was clearly using the term to oppose "the dark side" which is mentioned a lot in the films.

That is true. But I always took that as implying that the Dark Side is a corruption of an individual and an exception of what is normal.
With talk of the Light Side, it frequently gets presented as a duality of two equal and opposed Forces. Though I guess that idea was already implied in The Phantom Manace, with Anakin being believed to be destined to bring Balance to the Force. Though very importantly, the Jedi clearly don't seem to believe that whatever this Balance is supposed to be (they never say), it certainly is not a parity between the Jedi and the Sith. To them, Balance seems to be about the presence of the Dark Side being gone.
However, later on they admit that they don't really know what "bringing Balance to the Force" means, and it turns out in a way that is completely different than what they expected. Which apparently many people took to mean that the Balance is having only the Emperor and Vader on the Dark Side, and only Yoda and Obi-Wan to oppose them. Which works wonderfully as evidence to support a theory of duality.

But The Phantom Menance also gave us midichlorians, so that's how much credit I give the movie to elaborating on what the Force is in the original movies.
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