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Capital Ship Battle Rules?
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The Bissler
Commander
Commander


Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - I'll have a look at that!

I'm going into a RPG session just now, so hopefully I'll have something done tomorrow that I'll post up here for you to read up.
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The Bissler
Commander
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's what I've put together so far. Obviously, most of it is your work CR! Most of it is almost identical to what you'd originally posted, but I've tweaked things here and there.

Capital Ship Initiative:

Before combat begins, the Initiative order for each ship has to be resolved. To determine this, each Commander carries out the following two rolls:

Tactics: All commanders make opposing Tactics rolls. The Commander who wins receives the following bonus to his Initiative Roll:
1-10 = Your ship receives a +1D bonus to Initiative.
11-20 = Your ship receives a +1D bonus to Initiative and may redeclare its actions for that round after the enemy has declared theirs.
21+ = Your ship receives a +1D bonus to Initiative, may gain +1D to any crew skill (limited to a single unit type and single arc if applied to Capital Ship Gunnery) and may redeclare its actions for that round after the enemy has declared theirs.
Perception: All Commanders then roll Initiative using Perception as is normal. This will set the order for multiple Capital Ships to act.

Retaking the Initiative: At the start of a turn, a Commander can attempt to take back the Initiative by declaring a Tactical Adjustment. A fresh opposing Tactics roll is required from every Commander, with the Commander declaring the Tactical Adjustment suffering a -1D penalty to their roll (it's hard to turn the tide when you're under pressure). The results of the Tactics roll and the subsequent Initiative roll are applied as set out above.

Capital Ship Command:

The Ship's Commander is the key character in determining a vessel's success in any given turn. The Commander makes his Command Roll based on the number of crew on board the ship (see Appendix A). For the purposes of my group, the difficulty to successfully Command Nowhere is 12. (It should be 15, but I have reduced the difficulty as the ship is mostly manned by droids who are more compliant than a human/alien crew.)

Command Roll Result:
Success: For every 3 points above target roll, add one pip to crew skills.
Failure: For every 3 points below target roll, subtract one pip from crew skills.

Capital Ship Piloting:

Unless the Capital Ship is performing a tricky manoeuvre (such as navigating asteroids or flying close to other Capital-size ships), it is assumed that the Capital Ship is in open space and can be moved as desired, within movement limitations (namely the ship's speed, i.e.Space).

Note that, like other Spacecraft, Capital Ships may not fire on a turn that they move All-Out (quadruple Space). This is because all power is being distributed to the ship's engines.

Turning: Capital Ships are not built for manoeuvrability. A Capital Ship may only turn up to 90 degrees if flying at cautious speed, or up to 45 degrees at any other speed. This means that a ship would take two turns at cautious speed to turn right around, or four turns at any other speed.

No Capital Ship Piloting roll is required for any of the above. However, if a Capital Ship is in open space, flying at Cruising or High Speed, a Capital Ship Piloting roll may be made as a Full Reaction. This result of this roll will be added to the built in difficulty rolls (chiefly range: Point Blank Very Easy, Short Range Easy, Medium Range Moderate, Long Range Difficult). A Full Reaction cannot be moved for ships moving at Cautious Speed (too slow to effectively evade) or at All-Out (full power has been put into simply moving the ship at full pelt to take evasive action).

Capital Ship Shields:

You have enough dice to roll and crews are unlikely to fail Capital Shields rolls. Simply allocate your shields to whichever arcs you wish (front, back, left and right). Obviously, you will want to put most shields into the arc most under threat - but this may not always be an easy decision!

Capital Ship Gunnery:

Targeting & Fire Arcs: Capital Ships can target ships in each fire arc (i.e. left, right, front, and occasionally rear). Enemy ships which lie within a particular fire arc can be targeted with a single or multiple weapons on that arc.

Example: A Star Destroyer has a YT-1300 freighter and a Corellian Corvette in its left arc, and a Mon Calamari Cruiser in its front arc. The Star Destroyer may fire all of its front arc weapons at the Mon Calamari Cruiser, and may split the weapons on its left arc to fire upon both the YT-1300 freighter and the Corellian Corvette - or fire everything at one of the two targets.

A single Gunnery roll is made each turn for each weapon type on a Capital Ship on each arc. i.e. One roll for all Turbolasers, one for all Laser Cannon, one for all Ion Cannon. The Gunnery roll is modified by Fire Control. If the roll to hit exceeds the target's relevant Pilot Skill, roll for damage as well. Both the Gunnery roll and/or the Damage roll can be improved upon with Battery Dice (see below).

Example:
Front Arc: The Star Destroyer fires its Turbolasers and Ion Cannon at the Mon Calamari Corvette. A roll to hit is made for each weapon.
Left Arc: The Star Destroyer opts to fire its Turbolasers at the Corellian Corvette and its Ion Cannon at the YT-1300. A roll to hit is made for each weapon at the relevant target.

Battery Dice: To represent the sheer scale of coordinated firepower from a capital ship, the weapons receive Battery Dice which can be used to either bolster the Gunnery. The Battery Dice are shown under the Fire Arc stat on the Capital Ships. These must be allocated before any rolls are made - or are lost if they are not.

Battery Dice and Range: The effectiveness of a Battery is reduced at range. Subtract -1D for Short Range, -2D for Medium Range, and -3D for Long Range. There is no penalty for Point Blank fire.

Example:
Front Arc: Both the Turbolasers and the Ion Cannon each benefit from 4D Battery Dice on the front of the Star Destroyer. The Mon Calamari ship is at Medium Range which equates to -2D, so the Battery Dice on each are reduced from 4D to 2D. On both, the Commander decides to put 1D into the roll to hit and 1D into the Damage, increasing the Capital Ship Gunnery rolls from 4D+1 to 5D+1 and Turbolaser Damage from 5D to 6D and Ion Cannon Damage from 3D to 4D.
Left Arc: The Turbolaser has 4D Battery Dice while the Ion Cannon has 3D+2 Battery Dice. The Corellian Corvette and the YT-1300 are at short range (-1D), meaning 3D Battery dice are available for the Turbolasers and 2D+2 for the Ion Cannon. For the Turbolaser attack on the Corellian Corvette, the Commander puts 1D into the roll to hit and 2D into damage, increasing the Capital Ship Gunnery to 5D+1 and Turbolaser Damage to 7D while, mindful of the added difficulty of hitting a smaller scale target, adds all 2D+2 of the battery dice for the Ion Cannon attack on the YT-1300, increasing Capital Ship Gunnery to 7D (4D+1 + 2D+2 = 7D, remember 3 pips = 1D).

Capital Ship Damage:

REVISED STARSHIP DAMAGE CHART (use chart from rulebook, page 137 REUP rules, except as noted):

Shields Drained. (replaces Shields Blown). The ship's Shields are reduced to 0D for the remainder of this round. The ship suffers no permanent damage, and the Shields are recharged to full strength by the beginning of the next round. If the ship has no shields to begin with, it suffers the Ionization result instead.

Ionization. The ship's controls are temporarily overwhelmed by power surges. All actions involving ship systems suffer a -1D penalty; this affects Maneuverability, Weapons, Sensors, Shields, Astrogation, and even Hull (Particle Shields, up to a maximum of -2D). All penalties are cumulative (stack with other Ionization penalties) and temporary (roll off at a rate of 1D per round). Any ship system reduced to 0D by penalties can not be used until enough penalty dice roll off. In particular:
0D Maneuverability = Ship must maintain same heading and speed, in addition to any Lost Moves.

0D Fire Control = Weapon may not be fired.
In addition, each -1D Ionization penalty inflicts 1 Lost Move (See below for Lost Moves).

Lightly Damaged.
1. Ship loses -1D to Maneuverability (If Maneuverability is at 0D, it suffers -1 Move)
2. Sensors Damaged. Re-roll 1D:
1-3. Sensor Suite Damaged. -1D to all Sensor and Astrogation rolls.
4-6. Fire Control Damaged. -1D to all Fire Control.
3. Weapons Damaged. Re-roll 1D:
1-3. One on-board weapon emplacement is rendered inoperative by a major power surge or system failure; it's lightly damaged. Randomly determine which weapon is affected.
4-6. One on-board weapon system is hit on the arc attacked; subtract 1D from Battery Dice for that Weapon
4. Hyperdrive Damaged. Double the Astrogation Time to Use; if the pilot wants to try to jump to hyperspace in one round, add +10 to Difficulty.
5. Shields Blown. The ship loses 1D from its Shields total, which lasts until the shields are repaired. If the ship has no remaining dice in Shields, the penalty is applied to the ship's Particle Shields (Hull) up to a maximum of -2D. If the Particle Shields are already reduced by 2D, the ship suffers the Controls Ionized result.
6. Engines Damaged. -1 Move

Heavily Damaged.
If a Heavily Damaged ship is Lightly Damaged or Heavily Damaged again, it becomes Severely Damaged.
1. Ship loses -2D to Maneuverability (If Maneuverability is at 0D, it suffers -2 Move)
2. Sensors Badly Damaged. Re-roll 1D:
1-3. Sensor Suite Damaged. -2D to all Sensor and Astrogation rolls.
4-6. Fire Control Damaged. -2D to all Fire Control
3. Weapons Badly Damaged. Re-Roll 1D:
1-3. All weapons of one type in one fire arc are rendered inoperative due to a major power surge or system failure, and must be repaired before they can be used again.
4-6. All weapons of one type in one fire arc are destroyed by a series of power overloads.
4. Hyperdrive Damaged. Increase all Astrogation Difficulties by +10 until drive is repaired (Moderate Repair roll and 1 hour of work)
5. Shields Blown. The ship loses 2D from its Shields total, which lasts until the shields are repaired. If the ship has no remaining dice in Shields, the penalty is applied to the ship's Particle Shields (Hull) up to a maximum of -2D. If the Particle Shields are already reduced by 2D, the ship suffers the Controls Ionized result.
6. Engines Damaged. -2 Move

Severely Damaged.
If a Severely Damaged ship is damaged again, it is Destroyed (or becomes Catastrophically Damaged, at GM's discretion).
1. Dead In Space. All drives and maneuvering systems are destroyed. The vehicle is adrift in space.
2. Overloaded Reactor. The ship's reactor is overloading; unless it's shut down (Easy Repair Roll), the reactor will explode in 1D rounds and destroy the ship.
3. Disabled Hyperdrive. The ship's hyperdrives - main and backup - are damaged. The ship cannot enter hyperspace until they are fixed with a Moderate Repair roll and one hour of work.
4. Disabled Weapons. All weapons systems lose power. Roll 1D:
1-4: Weapons are Severely Damaged but may be repaired.
5-6: All weapons aboard the ship are Destroyed.

5 - Controls Damaged / Bridge Smashed. The ship's control systems are badly damaged. -3D to all skill rolls. For starfighters and space transports, the ship's control linkages and computer systems have been damaged; for capital ships, the ship's bridge or other central command station has taken a direct hit, killing or injuring many of the ship's senior officers (roll for Passenger Damage below).
6. Sensors Destroyed. All Sensors are rendered inoperable. Fire Control is reduced by -4D, and Piloting and Astrogation suffer a -4D penalty due to the loss of all sensor support for navigation purposes.

Destroyed. - The ship is instantly destroyed and explodes in a ball of flame. Everyone aboard is killed (GMs may make exceptions for major NPCs or recurring villains at their discretion).

Catastrophic Damage. (Replaces Destroyed for PC-manned ships at GM's discretion)
1-3 - Structural Damage. The ship is so badly damaged that it begins to come apart. The crew has 1D rounds to abandon ship before it is destroyed. Due to damage, the interior of the ship is treated as Moderate Terrain for characters trying to get to the escape pods.
4-5 - Blazing Hulk. The ship is badly damaged and fire rages inside. Roll 1D every round; on a 1, the ship explodes. Due to damage and internal fires, the interior of the ship is treated as Very Difficult Terrain for characters trying to get to the escape pods.
6 - Destroyed. The ship instantly explodes in a ball of flame, and all aboard suffer 12D damage.


LOST MOVES
Lost Moves are cumulative. For example, a starship that suffers a -1 Move result, then a -2 Move result is at -3 Moves.

-1 Move = The ship is limited to High Speed.
-2 Moves = The ship is limited to Cruising Speed.
-3 Moves = The ship is limited to Cautious Speed.
-4 Moves = The ship's drives are disabled; it's dead in space. The drives can be repaired, but are Severely Damaged.
-5 Moves = The ship's drives are destroyed; it's dead in space and the drives can not be repaired. The ship must either be abandoned or towed to a shipyard where a replacement engine can be installed.


PASSENGER DAMAGE
Passengers may be injured when a ship suffers damage or crashes. Use your judgment to decide whether a character takes damage, using the following chart as a baseline:
Lightly Damaged: 1D
Heavily Damaged: 3D
Severely Damaged: 6D
Destroyed: 12D
When calculating damage to crew and passengers aboard larger ships (with crews in the dozens to hundreds of thousands), use the following penalties, applied to the ship's Crew Skill dice values, representing how crew casualties affect the crew's ability as a whole to operate the ship.
Lightly Damaged - -1D for 1 round.
Heavily Damaged - -3D for 1 round, -2D for remainder of battle, -1D until crew casualties can be replaced.
Severely Damaged - -6D for 1 round, -4D for remainder of battle, -2D until crew casualties can be replaced.
Catastrophic Damage - Special: reserved for PC manned ships. Characters will have an indeterminate number of rounds to evacuate the ship before it is Destroyed.
Destroyed - All crew killed. The only exceptions will be NPCs who managed to make it to escape pods with seconds to spare. This allows the GM to preserve the life of major villains and such in the interests of continuing the story.


IONIZATION DAMAGE
Ionization damage can have a cumulative effect that completely overwhelms a ship's systems, causing permanent damage that must be repaired before the ship can be used. Using the following chart for cumulative Ionization damage:
0-4 = 1D Ionization
5-8 = 2D Ionization
9-12 = 3D Ionization
13-16 = 4D Ionization
17+ = Controls Dead (See Below)
If in a single round, Ionization damage exceeds 4D, it causes permanent damage to the target ship's systems. For example, if a ship suffering a -2D Ionization penalty is hit by an ion cannon for 3D of Ionization Damage, totalling 5D Ionization, the ship suffers the Controls Dead result, and is dead in space, adrift, with all drives, maneuvering and other ship systems disabled. For degree of damage, use the following chart:
17-20 (5D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Lightly Damaged)
21-24 (6D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Heavily Damaged)
25-28 (7D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Severely Damaged)
29+ (8D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Destroyed)
Repair Difficulties and Times are as listed under the appropriate Repair skill.

Once a ship has been disabled by a Controls Dead result, it can no longer suffer additional Ionization results until it is repaired. This is due to blown circuit breakers and loss of power protecting ship's systems from additional power surges.


Appendix A: Command Difficulty based on Crew Size
Crew Size (including gunners) = Command Difficulty
1-19 = Very Easy (1)
20-39 = Very Easy (2)
40-59 = Very Easy (3)
60-79 = Very Easy (4)
80-99 = Very Easy (5)
100-279 = Easy (6)
280-459 = Easy (7)
460-639 = Easy (8)
640-819 = Easy (9)
820-999 = Easy (10)
1,000-2,799 = Moderate (11)
2,800-4,599 = Moderate (12)
4,600-6,399 = Moderate (13)
6,400-8,199 = Moderate (14)
8,200-9,999 = Moderate (15)
10,000-27,999 = Difficult (16)
28,000-45,999 = Difficult (17)
46,000-63,999 = Difficult (18)
64,000-81,999 = Difficult (19)
82,000-99,999 = Difficult (20)
100,000-189,999 = Very Difficult (21)
190,000-279,999 = Very Difficult (22)
280,000-369,999 = Very Difficult (23)
370,000-459,999 = Very Difficult (24)
460,000-549,999 = Very Difficult (25)
550,000-639,999 = Very Difficult (26)
640,000-729,999 = Very Difficult (27)
730,000-819,999 = Very Difficult (28)
820,000-909,999 = Very Difficult (29)
910,000-999,999 = Very Difficult (30)
1,000,000+ = Heroic (31 and up)

Appendix B: Capital Ship Stats

Nowhere (Capital Scale):
Quad Turbolasers:
Fire Arcs: 3D Front, 2D+1 Left, 2D+1 Right
Fire Control: 4D
Damage: 6D
Range: 3-15/35/75
Dual Laser Cannon:
Fire Arcs: 3D+2 Front, 3D Left, 3D Right, 2D+1 Rear
Fire Control: 4D
Damage: 5D
Range: 1-5/10/20
Ion Cannon:
Fire Arcs: 2D+1 Front, 2D+1 Left, 2D+1 Right
Fire Control: 4D
Damage: 3D
Range: 1-5/10/20
Star Destroyer (Capital Scale):
Turbolaser Batteries:
Fire Arcs: 4D Front, 4D Left, 4D Right
Fire Control: 4D
Damage: 5D
Range: 3-15/35/75
60 Ion Cannon:
Fire Arcs: 4D Front, 3D+2 Left, 3D+2 Right, 3D Rear
Fire Control: 2D+2
Damage: 3D
Range: 1-10/25/50
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:
Okay, here's what I've put together so far. Obviously, most of it is your work CR! Most of it is almost identical to what you'd originally posted, but I've tweaked things here and there.

On first read-through, it looks solid.

Quote:
Perception: All Commanders then roll Initiative using Perception as is normal. This will set the order for multiple Capital Ships to act.

One alternative would be to use Sensors for Initiative, since the Captain won't be relying on his own Perception to detect incoming attacks. In fact, you might want to revert to the IAG method, whereby ships sensors have just a D rating, with no ranges.

Quote:
Turning: Capital Ships are not built for manoeuvrability. A Capital Ship may only turn up to 90 degrees if flying at cautious speed, or up to 45 degrees at any other speed. This means that a ship would take two turns at cautious speed to turn right around, or four turns at any other speed.

I'm not a fan of absolute prohibition against an action. Instead, I prefer making an action very hard to perform, which makes it effectively impossible, while leaving open the possibility that the Force / Luck / the Dice Gods were in the character's favor. However, this is more personal preference, so take it for what you will.

Quote:
No Capital Ship Piloting roll is required for any of the above. However, if a Capital Ship is in open space, flying at Cruising or High Speed, a Capital Ship Piloting roll may be made as a Full Reaction. This result of this roll will be added to the built in difficulty rolls (chiefly range: Point Blank Very Easy, Short Range Easy, Medium Range Moderate, Long Range Difficult). A Full Reaction cannot be moved for ships moving at Cautious Speed (too slow to effectively evade) or at All-Out (full power has been put into simply moving the ship at full pelt to take evasive action).

This needs to be cleared up, since I'm not sure whether you're referring to treating actual Moves as Full Reactions, or saying that the ship can only perform Full Reactions.

Quote:
Battery Dice: To represent the sheer scale of coordinated firepower from a capital ship, the weapons receive Battery Dice which can be used to either bolster the Gunnery.

This is incomplete. For clarity's sake, I suggest rewording it as follows: "the ship's weapon stats have been converted to Battery Dice, which can be applied to either Gunnery or Damage, or can be split between multiple targets."


Quote:
Battery Dice and Range: The effectiveness of a Battery is reduced at range. Subtract -1D for Short Range, -2D for Medium Range, and -3D for Long Range. There is no penalty for Point Blank fire.

This isn't technically correct. Battery Dice really should still be applicable to Gunnery, as multiple weapons firing increases the odds that one or two of them will still hit.

Quote:
Lightly Damaged. {snip}
3. Weapons Damaged. Re-roll 1D:
1-3. One on-board weapon emplacement is rendered inoperative by a major power surge or system failure; it's lightly damaged. Randomly determine which weapon is affected.
4-6. One on-board weapon system is hit on the arc attacked; subtract 1D from Battery Dice for that Weapon

If you are using Battery Dice, this rule needs to be re-written as follows:
    Weapons Damaged. -1D to Battery Dice in the affected Fire Arc.


Quote:
Nowhere (Capital Scale): {snip}
Ion Cannon:
Fire Arcs: 2D+1 Front, 2D+1 Left, 2D+1 Right
Fire Control: 4D
Damage: 3D
Range: 1-5/10/20

I forgot to ask earlier, do you want these to be Capital Scale or Starfighter Scale? The background write-up on the Providence suggested that the only Ion Cannon it had are point-defense weapons (which strongly suggests starfighter), but they will be next to useless in a battle with an ISD. Considering this is a modified Providence, switching these up to Capital Scale would not be inappropriate. If you agree, the stat should be moved between the Turbolasers and the Laser Cannon, and the Range should be changed to 1-10/25/50.

EDIT: Also, I noticed that you seem to be copy-pasting direct from the posts I provided as reference. If you'd like to retain the bold/underline/italics and indents I included for ease-of-reading, hit the Quote button, then copy-paste from there.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Bissler
Commander
Commander


Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One alternative would be to use Sensors for Initiative, since the Captain won't be relying on his own Perception to detect incoming attacks. In fact, you might want to revert to the IAG method, whereby ships sensors have just a D rating, with no ranges.


I can see the logic in this and do like the idea, but the problem is that it means that Initiative will likely always be won by a Captain with a great ship rather than his ability to react to the situation before him.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of absolute prohibition against an action. Instead, I prefer making an action very hard to perform, which makes it effectively impossible, while leaving open the possibility that the Force / Luck / the Dice Gods were in the character's favor. However, this is more personal preference, so take it for what you will.


The scene in RotJ is first and foremost in my mind when the Rebel ships look ponderously slow trying to spin around to react to the threat of the Imperial fleet. I just struggle to accept that they could turn faster than that, but agree, this is personal choice and wouldn't be upset to hear other GMs ignoring this.

Quote:
This needs to be cleared up, since I'm not sure whether you're referring to treating actual Moves as Full Reactions, or saying that the ship can only perform Full Reactions.


I'm essentially ignoring movement as an action. Movement in wide open space has never made much sense to me as requiring to be treated as a separate action and I have a particular dislike of the Movement Failure Charts in space so I don't make my players count it as an action - they can Move their ship whatever space they like within the limitations of their ship. A Full Reaction can be made if they wish (they usually do). Again, personal preference, I'd understand if other GMs wanted to do this their own way!

Quote:
This is incomplete. For clarity's sake, I suggest rewording it as follows: "the ship's weapon stats have been converted to Battery Dice, which can be applied to either Gunnery or Damage, or can be split between multiple targets."


Good catch, thanks! It was always meant to say Battery dice could be applied to either (or both) Gunnery or Damage.

Quote:
This isn't technically correct. Battery Dice really should still be applicable to Gunnery, as multiple weapons firing increases the odds that one or two of them will still hit.


I'm a little confused with this - the previous point says they can be split between both Gunnery and Damage. I've based this on this:

Quote:
The premise is, the farther away a target is, the more the salvo is going to spread out. This is handled by capping the maximum amount of Battery Dice that can be added to the Damage roll. At Point Blank, there's no cap; then it's Max-1D at Short, Max-2D at Medium, etc. Basically, at Long Range, all but the most heavily armed ships can only put their Battery Dice into Fire Control. This still can boost Damage (via the Accuracy Damage Rule), but nowhere near as well as a full broadside at Point Blank.


I've simplified this applying the limitation across the board to Battery Dice rather than limiting it only on Damage. The reason I tweaked this is because it's easier to explain to my players that the Battery Dice are lowered by x Dice and therefore have y dice to apply as they wish to Gunnery and/or Damage rather than saying you have y Battery Dice of which only x amount can be applied to Damage.

Quote:
If you are using Battery Dice, this rule needs to be re-written as follows:[list]Weapons Damaged. -1D to Battery Dice in the affected Fire Arc.


Thanks, another good catch!

Quote:
I forgot to ask earlier, do you want these to be Capital Scale or Starfighter Scale? The background write-up on the Providence suggested that the only Ion Cannon it had are point-defense weapons (which strongly suggests starfighter), but they will be next to useless in a battle with an ISD. Considering this is a modified Providence, switching these up to Capital Scale would not be inappropriate. If you agree, the stat should be moved between the Turbolasers and the Laser Cannon, and the Range should be changed to 1-10/25/50.


The stats should be Capital Scale - I pulled these directly from those in the document Raven provided the link for (and it states it is a Capital scale ship, so I assumed these would be capital scale?):

https://www.rancorpit.com/forums/downloads/Rancor%20Pit%20WotC%20Saga%20Stat%20Conversions/The%20Clone%20Wars%20-%20D6%20Conversion.pdf

On a sidenote, I've actually been wondering if Ion Cannon should be dropped altogether. My concern is that Nowhere is firing three weapons with three arcs, it can potentially deal out more damage each turn than the Star Destroyer which only has two weapons firing on three arcs.

Quote:
EDIT: Also, I noticed that you seem to be copy-pasting direct from the posts I provided as reference. If you'd like to retain the bold/underline/italics and indents I included for ease-of-reading, hit the Quote button, then copy-paste from there.


Apologies, I find it hard to edit things directly from this forum and so paste on to separate documents which I find easier to read, which once I'd worked on them then pasted back here. I wasn't trying to imply these were my work, apologies again if that's how it came across - or for any other breach of forum etiquette - that definitely was not my intention.
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Ray
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 1743
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Command Difficulty: You have to take into consideration that the Captain isn't commanding his entire crew at once (well, micromanaging horrorshows aside that is), he's ordering his officers and some of the Non-Commissioned Officers. The Officers are ordering NCOs based on the Captain's Orders, then the NCOs are telling the crew from there. Sometimes droids get involved, such as when repairs need to happen in a vacuum, and when something needs to be cleaned up.

On a big enough ship, however, that still makes for one hell of a lot of officers for a Captain to keep track of. And each officer will have a huge amount of NCOs. And the NCOs still have to make sure the crew doesn't screw up (because, let's face it, that's the unofficial job of a crew, isn't it? To make their NCOs and Officers go prematurely grey.)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:
I can see the logic in this and do like the idea, but the problem is that it means that Initiative will likely always be won by a Captain with a great ship rather than his ability to react to the situation before him.

Not necessarily. The ship with better sensors will certainly be at an advantage, but the sensor quality would just be part of the whole, with the combined Sensor Rating + Crew Sensor Skill + any Command Bonus + any Tactics Bonus. Viewed that way, a good crew and a smart captain can make up for inferior sensors.

Of course, that's verging into Bucket'o'dice territory, so you could also use 1/2 Sensors + 1/2 Crew Sensor Skill + Command and/or Tactics Bonus (get 1/2 by converting values to pips, divide by 2, then convert back to dice, rounding up).

Quote:
The scene in RotJ is first and foremost in my mind when the Rebel ships look ponderously slow trying to spin around to react to the threat of the Imperial fleet. I just struggle to accept that they could turn faster than that, but agree, this is personal choice and wouldn't be upset to hear other GMs ignoring this.

That's fair. I may have put a lot of thought into this, but this is still very much baby steps territory, so it's best to start small and build up as we see what works and what doesn't.

Quote:
I'm essentially ignoring movement as an action. Movement in wide open space has never made much sense to me as requiring to be treated as a separate action and I have a particular dislike of the Movement Failure Charts in space so I don't make my players count it as an action - they can Move their ship whatever space they like within the limitations of their ship. A Full Reaction can be made if they wish (they usually do).

That's fair. I suppose if this works out, we can see about working movement charts back in later; personally, I'm actually in favor of reverting to the 1E Method, with Speed Codes and Range bands instead of SUs.

Quote:
I've simplified this applying the limitation across the board to Battery Dice rather than limiting it only on Damage. The reason I tweaked this is because it's easier to explain to my players that the Battery Dice are lowered by x Dice and therefore have y dice to apply as they wish to Gunnery and/or Damage rather than saying you have y Battery Dice of which only x amount can be applied to Damage.

The premise behind the rule you posted was that Range only affected the application of Battery Dice to Damage because Gunnery is already handicapped by increasing Gunnery Difficulty as Range increases. The premise is, bluntly, "if you throw enough s*** at a wall, some of it is gonna stick." So, as Gunnery Difficulty increases with Range, the less likely it becomes that the guns will hit. However, this can be off-set by firing more guns to increase the chances of getting a hit.

So the way it works is, the Nowhere has 3D Battery Dice for its Bow Turbolasers.
    Point Blank = Can put up to the full 3D in either Gunnery or Damage
    Short = Can put up a Maximum of 2D in Damage
    Medium = Can put up a Maximum of 1D in Damage
    Long = Can't put any Battery Dice in Damage
The ISD is in a slightly better position, as its 4D Battery Dice give it a greater chance of hitting, but this is offset by the individually lower Damage of its cannon
    Point Blank = Up to full 4D in either Gunnery or Damage
    Short = Up to a Maximum of 3D to Damage
    Medium = Up to a Maximum of 2D to Damage
    Long = Up to a Maximum of 1D to Damage
So the trade-off here is that more, smaller guns have a better chance of hitting in numbers, but lack the Damage rating to really be able to do anything useful with it.

Quote:
On a sidenote, I've actually been wondering if Ion Cannon should be dropped altogether. My concern is that Nowhere is firing three weapons with three arcs, it can potentially deal out more damage each turn than the Star Destroyer which only has two weapons firing on three arcs.

A fun idea I've been playing with is, rather than having ion cannon ignore shields, have them degrade shields instead. Basically, roll them against just the Shield Dice for Ionization Damage, which is then applied as a temporary penalty to the Shield rating (rolling off at a rate of 1D per round). If the Shield takes enough Ionization Damage, it will eventually bring the Shields down.

From there, you get into using the ship's Shield skill in combination with static discharge vanes (see the Far Orbit Project) to try to disperse the ionization effect faster), and re-routing Auxiliary Power to bolster the shields against ion attacks.

However, I'll understand if that looks like too much at once. It's probably better suited for a game where you have multiple PCs serving as division officers aboard the Nowhere, with one running the Shields, one running Gunnery, etc.

Anyway, food for thought...

Also, I can't recall if I mentioned this or not. It's a rule for allowing the Nowhere to target specific systems of the ISD in order to disable it and prevent it from pursuing, as opposed to destroying it outright:
    1). Gunner declares which system he’s targeting: Maneuvering, Sensors, Weapons, Hyperdrive, Shields or Engines.

    2). Gunner then rolls to attack at -2D (effectively, shooting at a smaller Scale target).

    3). On a successful hit, do not roll on the random chart to see which system was damaged; just apply the result to the declared system as indicated by the Damage roll (Lightly Damaged, Heavily Damaged, etc.)

    4). On Severely Damaged, use the following results
      Maneuvering = Controls Damaged
      Shields = Overloaded Reactor
      Engines = Dead In Space


Quote:
Apologies, I find it hard to edit things directly from this forum and so paste on to separate documents which I find easier to read, which once I'd worked on them then pasted back here. I wasn't trying to imply these were my work, apologies again if that's how it came across - or for any other breach of forum etiquette - that definitely was not my intention.

No apologies necessary. It took me a while to grok the BBCode settings, so I try to offer a helping hand to others when I can.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
Command Difficulty: You have to take into consideration that the Captain isn't commanding his entire crew at once (well, micromanaging horrorshows aside that is), he's ordering his officers and some of the Non-Commissioned Officers.

This has already been taken into account using this chart to convert WEG-listed crew numbers into a Base Difficulty rating for the ship as a whole.

IMO, it would make sense in the long-term for the ship's Captain to make periodic Command skill checks to represent factors like crew morale, running drills to brush up requisite skills and such. This would then be used to either generate an initial Command bonus or to modify the ship's Crew Quality rating (see the above link).

However, I get the impression from this scenario that the Captain may be getting command of the ship on short notice, and thus may not have time to really make his mark felt on the crew. I may be mistaken, though...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Not necessarily. The ship with better sensors will certainly be at an advantage, but the sensor quality would just be part of the whole, with the combined Sensor Rating + Crew Sensor Skill + any Command Bonus + any Tactics Bonus. Viewed that way, a good crew and a smart captain can make up for inferior sensors.

Of course, that's verging into Bucket'o'dice territory, so you could also use 1/2 Sensors + 1/2 Crew Sensor Skill + Command and/or Tactics Bonus (get 1/2 by converting values to pips, divide by 2, then convert back to dice, rounding up).


I see the sense in all of this, but being brutally honest, myself and my players are fairly allergic to anything that involves more than "roll that skill". Believe it or not, I think I'm pushing the envelope by asking for a Tactics roll which will influence the Initiative roll! The amount of dice rolled is less of an issue for us because we use Roll20, but asking them to apply a formula definitely is. They like it to be as simple as possible so action flows quickly (and play comes back around to them quickly). I thought about calculating it for them ahead of the session, but then once systems start getting affected by damage, there's the possibility that this would have to be recalculated.

Quote:
That's fair. I may have put a lot of thought into this, but this is still very much baby steps territory, so it's best to start small and build up as we see what works and what doesn't.


Given what I said above, it may be an idea to trash the idea because it's another thing for the players to remember!

Quote:
That's fair. I suppose if this works out, we can see about working movement charts back in later; personally, I'm actually in favor of reverting to the 1E Method, with Speed Codes and Range bands instead of SUs.


I played 1st edition back in the 80's, but unfortunately I'm completely unfamiliar with it these days! It's REUP that I use and I'm sure there's many of you here who know I'm not even familiar enough with that! Laughing

Quote:
The premise behind the rule you posted was that Range only affected the application of Battery Dice to Damage because Gunnery is already handicapped by increasing Gunnery Difficulty as Range increases. The premise is, bluntly, "if you throw enough s*** at a wall, some of it is gonna stick." So, as Gunnery Difficulty increases with Range, the less likely it becomes that the guns will hit. However, this can be off-set by firing more guns to increase the chances of getting a hit.

So the way it works is, the Nowhere has 3D Battery Dice for its Bow Turbolasers.
    Point Blank = Can put up to the full 3D in either Gunnery or Damage
    Short = Can put up a Maximum of 2D in Damage
    Medium = Can put up a Maximum of 1D in Damage
    Long = Can't put any Battery Dice in Damage
The ISD is in a slightly better position, as its 4D Battery Dice give it a greater chance of hitting, but this is offset by the individually lower Damage of its cannon
    Point Blank = Up to full 4D in either Gunnery or Damage
    Short = Up to a Maximum of 3D to Damage
    Medium = Up to a Maximum of 2D to Damage
    Long = Up to a Maximum of 1D to Damage
So the trade-off here is that more, smaller guns have a better chance of hitting in numbers, but lack the Damage rating to really be able to do anything useful with it.


I think I get it now, I'll apply the changes. Thanks!

Quote:
A fun idea I've been playing with is, rather than having ion cannon ignore shields, have them degrade shields instead. Basically, roll them against just the Shield Dice for Ionization Damage, which is then applied as a temporary penalty to the Shield rating (rolling off at a rate of 1D per round). If the Shield takes enough Ionization Damage, it will eventually bring the Shields down.


I'm also coming around to running your Ionisation rules, I like the idea of using those cannons to degrade shields as a first strike, with the Turbolasers following up!

Quote:
From there, you get into using the ship's Shield skill in combination with static discharge vanes (see the Far Orbit Project) to try to disperse the ionization effect faster), and re-routing Auxiliary Power to bolster the shields against ion attacks.

However, I'll understand if that looks like too much at once. It's probably better suited for a game where you have multiple PCs serving as division officers aboard the Nowhere, with one running the Shields, one running Gunnery, etc.

Anyway, food for thought...


Definitely, all worth thinking about!

Quote:
Also, I can't recall if I mentioned this or not. It's a rule for allowing the Nowhere to target specific systems of the ISD in order to disable it and prevent it from pursuing, as opposed to destroying it outright:
    1). Gunner declares which system he’s targeting: Maneuvering, Sensors, Weapons, Hyperdrive, Shields or Engines.

    2). Gunner then rolls to attack at -2D (effectively, shooting at a smaller Scale target).

    3). On a successful hit, do not roll on the random chart to see which system was damaged; just apply the result to the declared system as indicated by the Damage roll (Lightly Damaged, Heavily Damaged, etc.)

    4). On Severely Damaged, use the following results
      Maneuvering = Controls Damaged
      Shields = Overloaded Reactor
      Engines = Dead In Space



Great idea!

...Not really the same thing, but I've already written that they can destroy a refuelling station which the Raiders happen to be in close proximity to - using the Specific Location rules on p 136 of REUP - if they succeed, it will create a massive explosion which should deal a lot of damage to the Raiders. Of course, they'd better have enough movement left to get clear of the station when it goes up!

I had been planning on doing something similar for the Interdictor's gravity well projectors so this has saved me some work!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:
I see the sense in all of this, but being brutally honest, myself and my players are fairly allergic to anything that involves more than "roll that skill".

In that case, if you're going to boil it down to a single skill, there's a far better argument to be made for using Sensors for Initiative in space, since the Captain isn't going to be scanning for attacks by looking out the viewport, and his Tactics roll is going to be based on information being fed to him from the ship's sensors anyway.

Quote:
I played 1st edition back in the 80's, but unfortunately I'm completely unfamiliar with it these days! It's REUP that I use and I'm sure there's many of you here who know I'm not even familiar enough with that! Laughing

For the most part, it does away with the SU system and uses opposed dice rolls for speed contests instead. However, it still uses meters for ranges in some circumstances. I'm working on a system that gets rid of even that, so that everything about ranges is based on general description.

Quote:
I'm also coming around to running your Ionisation rules, I like the idea of using those cannons to degrade shields as a first strike, with the Turbolasers following up!

Exactly what I was picturing.


Quote:
...Not really the same thing, but I've already written that they can destroy a refuelling station which the Raiders happen to be in close proximity to - using the Specific Location rules on p 136 of REUP - if they succeed, it will create a massive explosion which should deal a lot of damage to the Raiders. Of course, they'd better have enough movement left to get clear of the station when it goes up!

That reminds me of a couple things...

Alliance Bomb Ship - A stripped-down GR75 transport converted into the spacegoing equivalent of a Fire Ship from the Age of Sail. Basically, it's packed with explosives and designed to blow up on contact with a high-value target. You could potentially make use of either the entire stat or the proximity damage rules.

I also have some quick Blast Radius rules, but you'd need to decide how far away the Raiders will be from the station so as to properly calculate the Damage Reduction

Quote:
I had been planning on doing something similar for the Interdictor's gravity well projectors so this has saved me some work!

Any thoughts on my earlier suggestion of moving the Interdictor and the Raiders down 2D in Scale?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In that case, if you're going to boil it down to a single skill, there's a far better argument to be made for using Sensors for Initiative in space, since the Captain isn't going to be scanning for attacks by looking out the viewport, and his Tactics roll is going to be based on information being fed to him from the ship's sensors anyway.


Yes, I'd be happy with this!

Quote:
That reminds me of a couple things...

Alliance Bomb Ship - A stripped-down GR75 transport converted into the spacegoing equivalent of a Fire Ship from the Age of Sail. Basically, it's packed with explosives and designed to blow up on contact with a high-value target. You could potentially make use of either the entire stat or the proximity damage rules.


The bomber idea is a good one, but this is a trap so I'm not keen on providing something like this unless the players themselves come up with the idea themselves before the mission. It would feel like I'd handed them a "get out of jail free" card if I set it out first!

Quote:
I also have some quick Blast Radius rules, but you'd need to decide how far away the Raiders will be from the station so as to properly calculate the Damage Reduction


I've already written the damage for the radius but I'll have a look at this in any event!

Quote:
Any thoughts on my earlier suggestion of moving the Interdictor and the Raiders down 2D in Scale?


It makes a lot of sense to me, but it's the remembering of another level of scale that worries me (I'm not great at remembering the die codes for Scale as it is)!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fine with the Captain rolling Perception, I like to think of it as his wits for coming up with his commands at that moment based on information from Sensors. The only benefit that Sensors should be able to give is for actually detecting your enemy before they do, and that comes down to range more than power (dice), IMO.

I haven't been able to read much more, but I'll take a look if I get some time before your game. Looking forward to reading about how this turns out!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I'm fine with the Captain rolling Perception, I like to think of it as his wits for coming up with his commands at that moment based on information from Sensors. The only benefit that Sensors should be able to give is for actually detecting your enemy before they do, and that comes down to range more than power (dice), IMO.

I haven't been able to read much more, but I'll take a look if I get some time before your game. Looking forward to reading about how this turns out!


Once we've finalised the rules, I'll run a play test of Nowhere v ISD and I'll make a point of sharing it here. It shouldn't match the excitement of the scenario, but hopefully it'll make for interesting reading!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I'm fine with the Captain rolling Perception, I like to think of it as his wits for coming up with his commands at that moment based on information from Sensors.

IMO, that's better represented here by the Tactics skill.

Quote:
The only benefit that Sensors should be able to give is for actually detecting your enemy before they do, and that comes down to range more than power (dice), IMO.

They could also, potentially, detect what systems aboard the enemy ship are being fed extra power, at expense of what. Extra power to engines at expense of Maneuverability = "He's going to try to cut behind us. All starboard turbolasers come to bearing 136 by 24, fire on my command!" Much like how a trained fighter can read an opponent's intentions by their body positioning, sensors can do the same for ships in space.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bissler wrote:
Quote:
Any thoughts on my earlier suggestion of moving the Interdictor and the Raiders down 2D in Scale?


It makes a lot of sense to me, but it's the remembering of another level of scale that worries me (I'm not great at remembering the die codes for Scale as it is)!

It shouldn't be too hard, since you're essentially going to have two different battles going on: the Nowhere v. ISD at +12D and the Interdictor vs. the PCs and starfighters at +10D vs. +6D.

Oh, and if you need the modified stats for the Raiders and the Interdictors, I have that, too.

And since the Interdictor will have a couple squadrons of TIEs, I also have my squadron-level starfighter combat rules...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, and if you need the modified stats for the Raiders and the Interdictors, I have that, too.


Yes please! I was going to ask about these, but have been prioritising the rules and getting set for the Nowhere v ISD battle first!

Quote:
And since the Interdictor will have a couple squadrons of TIEs, I also have my squadron-level starfighter combat rules...


I'd intended on winging it (no pun intended) with the fighters during the battle with the X-Wings and TIEs being wiped out on a roughly 1:2 ratio. I don't want to be rolling for any of those other than the ones that the PCs will be dealing with on a 1-2-1 basis.

However, for the sake of completeness for when I publish the rules, I would very much like to see and add in these rules. Also, the Captain may want to use some of Nowhere's weapons on the TIEs, so it would be good to see what your suggestions are!

Thanks!
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