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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Haha!!!!
I just reread the post that started this off.
Okay, what I meant was that TPM Anakin and ANH Luke are starting PCs. LOL.
Luke might be a slightly experienced PC at the start of ANH (WotC puts him at 2nd character level, but I could see him being a 1st level/starting PC).
Sorry for the confusion.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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In no way, could i ever see luke or anakin, starting level pcs.. EVEN in the ANH galaxy guide, luke is wrote with 11d+1 in dex skills. That alone puts him way beyond a starting PC... And that doesn't even take into account his other skills...
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ThrorII
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | In no way, could i ever see luke or anakin, starting level pcs.. EVEN in the ANH galaxy guide, luke is wrote with 11d+1 in dex skills. That alone puts him way beyond a starting PC... And that doesn't even take into account his other skills... |
Yeah, in the 1e A New Hope Galaxy Guide, Luke has 59D worth of skills and force dice. Assuming he was a real PC, he'd start with 18D of abilities and 7D of skill, for a total of 25D.
If he was a PC he's supposedly earned 34 Dice (102 pips worth) of skills between character creation and the end of A New Hope. The average adventure is supposed to be 3-10 skill points, plus no more than 15 bonus skill points (a suggested maximum of 25 points per adventure). And remember, raising a skill from 3D to 3D+1 costs 3 skill points, but raising one 5D to 5D+1 costs 5 points.
Lets make a giant assumption, and say the 'average' skill being increased is 4D (some will be 1D, some might be 6D or 8D, but lets just say the average is 4D). That is 4 skill points per pip increased. So you could expect on an average adventure of 20 skill points to raise your character's skills 5 pips. Under that assumption, Luke might have had 20 adventures BEFORE he met Old Ben.
The writers wanted Luke to be a Big-Bad-Hero on paper, even though ANH was supposed to be his first big adventure. It was apparently part of the design that all the big heroes and villains were beyond what most players could ever attain.
As the average adventure is 2 session according to the 1e book (If I remember correctly), I'd like to see the GM who tells Luke's player "OK, we're playing Star Wars, but the first 40 sessions are going to be on Tatooine only, living with your aunt and uncle".....   
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | I get that the consensus is that Luke/Anakin et al are "too powerful for the rules." I just think that's a constrained way to look at a galaxy sized setting.
I do find it interesting that you said Luke can't fit into the standard rules, and then said the he estabishes the rules of the setting, and therefore can't break them.
My opinion is simply that the movie characters don't have to be untouchable or incomparable.
For example, Batman is relevant in a universe that includes Superman.... and he even manages to upstage the Kryptonian from time to time. He's not "powerful" in the same sense that Superman is, but the Talents he selected at character creation make him "on par" as a character. Mostly because Superman's power is checked by a goody-two-shoes character trait, which he took at character creation.
It's my position that RPGs set in an established setting should work like this. |
I don't think adult Anakin is too powerful for the rules. NPC rules are adequate. I think adult Anakin is too powerful for PC rules, meaning the game system breaks down for PCs statted out as powerful as his NPC stats must be.
I don't think all movie characters are untouchable or incomparable to PCs. Kid Anakin might be around starting PC level character level, like you said. ANH Luke is probably still above, but not leaps and bounds above. Maybe not too far above with a ton of CPs, if I had to stat him out. But Adult Anakin, Jedi Masters, and Sith Lords are really well beyond PC levels, at least in my game. I've never had a campaign that went for more than 4 years, and with advancement being a little slower in my game, PCs never get close to that level. But they still get good enough to do some epic stuff.
Superman and Batman don't really apply because they, like Anakin and Luke, are not RPG PCs. Superman and Batman are authored characters. Batman is relevant in Superman's world because the writers write Batman to be relevant. If you play a superhero RPG, you aren't going to play Superman or Batman. You are going to play original characters that have some sense of game balance in the creation of them. Fiction authors aren't concerned with game balance because it is not a game.
And let's face it, film character stats really don't matter. If they appear in your campaign, it is probably cameos or more plot driven ways where their stats or dice rolls aren't going to have huge impact on the RPG story being created. See below for more...
| garhkal wrote: | | In no way, could i ever see luke or anakin, starting level pcs.. EVEN in the ANH galaxy guide, luke is wrote with 11d+1 in dex skills. That alone puts him way beyond a starting PC... And that doesn't even take into account his other skills... |
That same book also statted Greedo out as an 18D bounty hunter. In this thread we are partially discussing what the actual ability levels of movie character would be in game terms compared to PCs, not what RAW statted them out as. I think Luke's ANH stats are a little overboard. Think about it. It is just an author making stuff up and adding it to a sheet. They aren't play-testing NPC stats for accuracy in the game system. I feel how RAW specifically statted these characters is pretty irrelevant to the topic.
| ThrorII wrote: | | Yeah, in the 1e A New Hope Galaxy Guide, Luke has 59D worth of skills and force dice. Assuming he was a real PC, he'd start with 18D of abilities and 7D of skill, for a total of 25D. |
It's amazing that you went to all the trouble to calculate this!
| ThrorII wrote: | If he was a PC he's supposedly earned 34 Dice (102 pips worth) of skills between character creation and the end of A New Hope. The average adventure is supposed to be 3-10 skill points, plus no more than 15 bonus skill points (a suggested maximum of 25 points per adventure). And remember, raising a skill from 3D to 3D+1 costs 3 skill points, but raising one 5D to 5D+1 costs 5 points
Lets make a giant assumption, and say the 'average' skill being increased is 4D (some will be 1D, some might be 6D or 8D, but lets just say the average is 4D). That is 4 skill points per pip increased. So you could expect on an average adventure of 20 skill points to raise your character's skills 5 pips. Under that assumption, Luke might have had 20 adventures BEFORE he met Old Ben.
The writers wanted Luke to be a Big-Bad-Hero on paper, even though ANH was supposed to be his first big adventure. It was apparently part of the design that all the big heroes and villains were beyond what most players could ever attain.
As the average adventure is 2 session according to the 1e book (If I remember correctly), I'd like to see the GM who tells Luke's player "OK, we're playing Star Wars, but the first 40 sessions are going to be on Tatooine only, living with your aunt and uncle"..... |
LOL, good point. Luke is an NPC, and NPC don't go on "adventures". Adventures is a game term for the stories being created by the gaming group through a simulation using the RPG's game rules. NPCs are statted out as the GM feels is appropriate for their experience level at the point they appear in the adventures. There is no system to stat out NPCs. They can have any attribute dice and skill dice totals the GM puts down. Over the course of multiple reappearances of an NPC, sure the GM may improve some skills here and there as he sees fit for the NPCs experiences (most of which are probably "offscreen"), but the NPC doesn't earn CPs like PCs do.
The only point of any NPC stats are just for how they come into play with PCs. Otherwise, any extra-adventure NPC actions are pure narrative and the GM only has to make the stats not impossible to do what they supposedly do outside their appearances in the game.
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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | In no way, could i ever see luke or anakin, starting level pcs.. EVEN in the ANH galaxy guide, luke is wrote with 11d+1 in dex skills. That alone puts him way beyond a starting PC... And that doesn't even take into account his other skills... |
All I'm saying is that WEG is wrong, as far as I'm concerned.
I interpret the films as one story in the Star Wars galaxy that is big enough for more than one epic hero/villain.
Caveat: I also believe in a degree of plot armor for PCs and major villains. Stuff happens, but sometimes, you have to fudge the dice for the sake of the thrill. A well timed player kill is so much more impactful (in the right way) on the experience than tripping over a rock and fatally craking a head open.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
Caveat: I also believe in a degree of plot armor for PCs and major villains. Stuff happens, but sometimes, you have to fudge the dice for the sake of the thrill. A well timed player kill is so much more impactful (in the right way) on the experience than tripping over a rock and fatally craking a head open. |
I have never ever, liked plot armor for PC's.. No matter what the game system.
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