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Starship Repair?
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Yora wrote:
But at a closer look, hovercraft are air cushion vehicles (which immediately gets my vote for most useless skill in the game),


Perhaps hovercraft are mostly used on planets, that for what ever reason, disallow repulsorlift vehicles??


Maybe. But have you ever heared of such a planet in Star Wars? And if not, why would you create such a planet for your campaign? The only reason I could think of is to have functionally landspeeders but without letting players use their landspeeder skill.
But this is also the version of the game that has different skills for assault rifles and flintlock muskets.

I am questionig the overall philosophy of having as many skills with the narrowest uses possible, instead of letting players make use of their character's skills in as many situations as would still be plausible.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:48 pm    Post subject: hover vehicles Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
But at a closer look, hovercraft are air cushion vehicles (which immediately gets my vote for most useless skill in the game)

I agree.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Hovercraft are specialized for niche environments or conditions. It's also possible that they're stealthier than repulsorlifts (perhaps the air cushion mechanism makes less of a sensor footprint than whatever anti-gravity effect a repulsorlift would make to support a vehicle of that mass).
Yora wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Perhaps hovercraft are mostly used on planets, that for what ever reason, disallow repulsorlift vehicles??

Maybe. But have you ever heared of such a planet in Star Wars? And if not, why would you create such a planet for your campaign?
...
But this is also the version of the game that has different skills for assault rifles and flintlock muskets.

I can't think of any reason a planet that would disallow repulsorlifts but allow hover vehicles. Hover vehicles create lift by blowing air down towards the ground. They are loud as hell, so I think they would make horrible stealth vehicles. Repulsorlifts are pretty miraculous technology by pushing against gravity maintaining a constant height while not killing anyone on the ground they fly over, so I'm having difficulty imagining any niche environment or condition hover vehicles would be advantageous over repulsorlifts. I've always viewed hovercraft as archaic repulsorlift vehicles, so they would only exist on more "primitive" planets by galactic standards, which haven't invented or imported repulsorlift tech.

Yora, you'll be happy to know I have never once had a hover vehicle or hover vehicle skills in my game. I thought that was something that they made up for Blue Vader, but maybe there was an old Marvel comic or something that had them in it. I personally have no issue with hover vehicles and their operation and repair skills existing, somewhere in my SWU. Just probably not anywhere an adventure I ran would ever take PCs. Archaic guns have rarely appeared in my game, but I think I will put some in the hands of Tuskens in a future adventure set on Tatooine. They did shoot at Anakin with them in TPM.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One potential use I've heard posited for Hoverscouts in particular (seeing as how Zahn paired them with walkers for the ground assault on Karrde's abandoned base in the opening chapter of Dark Force Rising) is that hover vehicles maintain enough surface contact that they can push through energy shields (ala the Gungan tactical shields) without shorting out, yet still retain enough mobility to act as a screening force for the much slower walkers. Not as fast as repulsorlifts, certainly, but that matters little if you can't get a repulsorlift vehicle under the shield in the first place.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that's where they came from. I read that book but did not remember that.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Starship Repair? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I handle engineering as a general advanced skill with many possible specializations, and the engineering specializations each have the main engineering skill and other normal skills as prerequisites.
CRMcNeill wrote:
The (A) Engineering skill is already set up that way, with each of the (A) Engineering sub-types having their own prerequisites.

Oh yeah. I just checked Hideouts & Strongholds for the first time in a long time. I have tweaked engineering and it's specializations from what is presented there, but that is probably where I got the idea from.

Whill wrote:
I handle engineering as a general advanced skill with many possible specializations, and the engineering specializations each have the main engineering skill and other normal skills as prerequisites.
CRMcNeill wrote:
The thing is, there's no reason you can't have multi-tiered Advanced Skills, as in, have the basic System Repair skills, with (A) Craft Type Repair as prerequisites, and then have (A) Craft Type Engineering with (A) Craft Type Repair as a prerequisite.

LOL, I just said that. I agree. There's no reason why you can't have multi-tiered advance skills. I have that.

Whill wrote:
I am very resistant to making spaceship repair itself be an advanced skill. I think the spaceship repair skills are broad in RAW, but spaceship repair should be a normal skill, which is why I am considering other options of separating hyperdrive and shields from it... In my opinion, the advanced version of starship repair is an engineering skill.
CRMcNeill wrote:
That way, you'd have the system basics, which would be applicable to any system of that type, then the (A) Craft Type Repair skill to represent a character's more specialized expertise at how that basic system knowledge slots into a specific field, and then the (A) Craft Type Engineering skill where the character can now take that knowledge and innovate with it.

Alternately, seeing as how Advanced Specializations are a thing, you could have (A) Repair as the main skill, with Specializations like (A) Repair: Space Transports, or (A) Repair: Capital Ships under it.

You could, but my preference is to keep spaceship repair a normal skill and reduce its scope/power. And then have the multi-tiered advance skills above it be engineering skills. In my game, most living characters and droids would not have an advanced spaceship-related skill.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
So that's where they came from. I read that book but did not remember that.
Well, the original source was the Vehicles chapter of the Imperial Sourcebook. The fluff for the Hoverscout is where the idea came from for air cushion vehicles being used in environments where repulsorlifts can't.

Speaking of, here are some advantages the ImpSB mentions:
    -Maintenance and failure rate is better than most competitive floater scouts.

    -Easier and cheaper to maintain.

    -Requires less training to operate than do repulsorlift vehicles.

    -Some worlds and terrain types make repulsorlifts behave erratically.
Unfortunately, these don't exactly translate over to the RAW. The last entry could be just as simple as applying a +10 Difficulty modifier to all Terrain Rolls for Repulsorlift vehicles
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Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Kind of wish Star Wars had something similar to Shadowrun's skill tree... yes, I can fall back on my Technical to repair or Mechanical to pilot, but if I'm the best Space Transports mechanic in the galaxy, I should be more than middling if it comes to a speeder or capital ship.... there should be some knowledge crossover.
That thing is a horrible abomination and I'm so glad it died a horrible, horrible death!

And that's speaking from one of Shadowrun's current authors! Twisted Evil
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some possible rule bonuses, based on the above:
Quote:
Maintenance and failure rate is better than most competitive floater scouts.

+1D to Body on Long Distance Movement rolls

Quote:
-Easier and cheaper to maintain.

Reduce all Repair Difficulties and Costs by one level.

Quote:
-Requires less training to operate than do repulsorlift vehicles.

-5 to all Piloting Difficulties.

Quote:
-Some worlds and terrain types make repulsorlifts behave erratically.

+10 to the Terrain Difficulty of Repulsorlifts when operating on the affected planet / environment.

Also, since the only clear application of Air Cushion Hover propulsion is in a Scout vehicle, add +5 to all Sensor Difficulties when attempting to Detect / Identify the Hoverscout.

Some or all of these can be applied to Air Cushion vehicles at GM discretion.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Yora wrote:
But at a closer look, hovercraft are air cushion vehicles (which immediately gets my vote for most useless skill in the game),


Perhaps hovercraft are mostly used on planets, that for what ever reason, disallow repulsorlift vehicles??


Maybe. But have you ever heared of such a planet in Star Wars? And if not, why would you create such a planet for your campaign?


I did one for my home campaign. Ships of any sort have a hard time landing (as repulsors of any sort don't work). So all those who crashed, wound up being stranded. Locals there, took to using hover, mostly for getting around.. Island to island.. On islands though, they went via ground vehicles...

It became a 'hide out' spot for those just wanting to 'escape it all'.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Starship Repair? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Starships just have such a wider range of technologies than all other vehicles. Thoughts?

As a brief recap, 1e had one starship gunnery skill, one starship piloting skill and one starship repair skill. In 2e, starship gunnery became two skills, starship piloting became three skills, and starship repair became five skills. But the latter divisions only slightly addressed the issue of starship repair covering such a wide variety of technologies that starships have (that each have their own Mechanical skill(s) to operate). 2e split off repairing the space weapons from the main repair skill.

Here is my revamp of all starship-related skills.

And since the "repair" skills all do more than just repair (they modify in RAW and may do even more in house rules), I changed them all from repair to "tech". Although "tech" is the usual abbreviation for "technology" and that wouldn't be inappropriate here, I think of tech as short for "technical skill." Most of these "tech" skills each correlate to an "operation" skill in Mechanical.

Code:
MECHANICAL               TECHNICAL

Astrogation              Hyperdrives
Repulsorlift Operation   Repulsorlift Tech
Shield Operation         Shield Tech
Spaceship Gunnery        Space Weapon Tech
Spaceship Operation      Spaceship Tech
(A) Capital Ship Op.     (A) Capital Ship Tech
                         (A) Engineering
                            (A) Engineering: Starships
                            (A) Engineering: Capital Ships

My skills are the green skills, and below I detail which RAW skills that my skills replace, with further notes about the scope of what they cover if applicable. Here, the RAW skill names are in quotation marks.

Astrogation – This has the same scope "Astrogation" has in RAW.
Repulsorlift Operation – "Repulsorlift Operation" and "Swoop Operation", plus operating repulsorlifts of all scales
Shield Operation – "Starship Shields" and "Capital Ship Shields", plus operating all shields of all other scales (character to planetary)
Spaceship Gunnery – "Starship Gunnery" and "Capital Ship Gunnery"
Spaceship Operation – "Starfighter Piloting" and starfighter-scale "Space Transports"
(A) Capital Ship Operation – "Capital Ship Piloting" and capital-scale "Space Transports", plus other general capital ship operations

Hyperdrives – technical skill for all hyperdrives
Repulsorlift Tech – "Repulsorlift Repair" and "Swoop Repair" (from a supplement); technical skill for repulsorlifts of all scales (including swoops)
Shield Tech – technical skill for all shields of all scales (character to planetary)
Space Weapon Tech – "Starship Weapon Repair" and "Capital Ship Weapon Repair"
Spaceship Tech – "Starfighter Repair" and starfighter-scale "Space Transports Repair", except that when this skill is used to repair the hyperdrives, repulsorlifts, shields, and weapon systems on this scale of spaceships (instead of using the dedicated tech skills for those things), there is a -2D penalty.
(A) Capital Ship Tech – "Capital Ship Repair" and capital-scale "Space Transports Repair", except that when this skill is used to repair the hyperdrives, repulsorlifts, shields, and weapon systems on capital ships (instead of using the dedicated tech skills for those things), there is a -2D penalty.
(A) Engineering – Functional base engineering skill itself applicable to civil, industrial, and installation engineering, but it is also a basis of several advanced skill specializations such as droid, repulsorlift, weapon, starship, and capital ship.


A lot of spaceships have repulsorlifts, mostly for landing and taking off. Some capital ships even have them, like the Imp I that hovered over Jedha City in RO. If a spaceship is flying through the atmosphere in combat or otherwise in a hurry, they are using their sublight engines so the pilot's player could still roll their spaceship operation skill. But if they have to carefully land their ship in a barely big-enough sinkhole, I'd instead call for a repulsorlift operation roll. The repulsorlift tech skill (or base attribute) could be used to repair the repulsorlift engine in a spaceship.

Spaceships with hyperdrive are starships. There are a lot of starships but there are some spaceships without hyperdrives (like TIEs which would technically be spacefighters, not starfighters). Astrogation still sets a course to travel through hyperspace for starships of all scales, and the new hyperdrive skill (or base attribute) could be used to repair hyperdrives of all scales.

I merged the two RAW starship shields skills and expanded them into shield operation, which can be used to operate all shields of all scales from character to planetary. The new shield tech skill (or base attribute) could likewise be used to repair shield tech of all scales.

Spaceship gunnery operates all spaceship weapons, whether they be on starfighters, space transports, capital ships, or space stations. Space weapons tech (or base attribute) could be used to repair these weapon systems.

Instead of RAW's three spaceship piloting skills, I have two: one normal skill spaceship operation to pilot all ships of what RAW calls starfighter-scale, and one advanced skill (A) capital ship operation to pilot all ships of what RAW calls capital-scale. In CRM's Scale rules which I use, this division is between the scales of Starship 6D and Frigate 10D/Destroyer 12D. (I'm not sure if Dreadnought 16D scale should be included or have its own advanced skill on top of this one, but that isn't really important right now.) I'm thinking that someone without the advanced capital ship skill could still attempt to use the normal skill to pilot capital ships with a penalty, similar to how RAW says someone can try to operate a bacta tank with only the first aid skill, but it is much more difficult and failure is dangerous.

I applied the same 3-to-2 reduction to the main repair skills, spaceship tech and (A) capital ship tech. Since the repulsorlift, hyperdrive, shield, and space weapons component technologies are common on spaceships, you can use the appropriate main tech skill for the scale of ship to repair these technologies at a -2D penalty, which would only be advantageous if the ship tech skill was more than 2D above the component tech skill. Before this I had already implemented the repulsorlift skills (rarely) being used on spaceships and the -2D to use the main ship repair skill for ship weapons, so in adding the hyperdrive and shield tech skills I didn't want to remove the skill overlap in my mission to reduce the technological scope of the main ship tech skills. Making all four of the component technologies skills cover all scales doesn't make the overlap seem too much since the main ship tech skills can only apply to its scale of ships. This seems like a good compromise. I plan on beefing up my spaceship tech droid stats to accommodate the additional skills.

The (A) engineering specialization of starship is called that (star instead of space) because it has prerequisites in not only spaceship tech but hyperdrive and the other component technologies. It is a very well-rounded starship skill but accordingly costs a lot to get with all the prerequisites. The capital ship engineering specialization has prerequisites of (A) capital ship tech and the starship engineering specialization.

All in all, just with these skills alone I have reduced the total number of skills by seven, so even with me adding two new skills I still have a net reduction of five less skills compared to RAW. (I've also merged several other skills not mentioned in this post so I've done quite a lot of skill bloat deflation.) And some of those skills have expanded in scope too.

In RAW you don't use a starship piloting skill for astrogation and starship shields, but hyperdrives and shields were covered under the same general repair skill. One thing I really love about my version is the more elegant correspondence between Mechanical and Technical. Of course there are still other skills on each attribute that don't have a counterpart on the other, but all the "spaceship" stuff under Mechanical on my character sheet now has a counterpart on Technical.

I know this won't suit everyone but I'd thought I'd share just in case anyone else is inspired.
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