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Fixing Advanced Skills
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I agree with Whill's proposal. As a matter of fact, I posted an idea very similar to this one a few years ago. There may be something useful there for anyone interested in looking at it.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6024&highlight=advanced

Cheers. I'm pretty sure I didn't see that thread back then or I would have at least replied, and since it is a good idea I probably would have adopted this back then. But maybe I did see it, forgot about consciously, and then recently my unconscious mind pushed it back into consciousness when I was thinking about skills. Thank you for sharing it back then and bringing it back up.

However, in my conception advanced skills can still boost normal skills when applicable. Here the main change I was suggesting was that the attribute is added whenever no normal skills are applicable to the advanced skill roll.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
sithholocron wrote:
That sounds incredibly math heavy for no reason. you want to be able to do things quickly. not have your players do homework.
CRMcNeill wrote:
Sounds like an additional layer of unnecessary math...

One pip for every die isn't math heavy...

To be fair, I just said it wasn't necessary. Sure, it would be easy enough; I just don't see the need for it.

Right. I was disagreeing that it was math heavy, but agreeing that it wasn't necessary.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Thanks. And it wouldn't necessarily even need to be the same attribute for every action. Going back to (A) medicine, Technical would be a good attribute to add the skill to for bacta tank use, but if a character was performing surgery on a patient I might have the character add his (A) medicine to Dexterity instead of Technical.

Strictly speaking, Technical already has something of a Dexterity component built into it. Making precise manipulations of tiny, delicate components, whether artificial or organic, certainly isn't the same as firing a blaster pistol or picking a pocket, but it does require a degree of hand-eye coordination to be good at it.

Agreed, Technical does include a dexterity aspect. But if there are no high tech tools being used and the main instrument of a surgery is a simple scalpel, then pure Dexterity may possibly be more applicable than Technical. Surgery is rare anyway because characters usually get medpacs used on them or put in bacta tanks. I created surgery rules since RAW didn't have.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Of course, IIRC, you moved First Aid and (A) Medicine over to Knowledge, and it's a lot harder to justify a Dexterity component to the Knowledge Attribute.

Yes I moved first aid to Knowledge, but I never said that I moved (A) medicine to Knowledge because I've never thought of advanced skills as being a part of any attribute. On my character sheet, advanced skills have their own section so aren't listed under any attribute.

The very premise of this skill-based game system was that skills are inherently aspects of attributes and unimproved skills default to their attributes. All non-Force skills worked that way in 1e. When I got Blue Vader and first read about advanced skills, I thought it was dumb that they even listed (A) medicine as part of Technical because it didn't default to Technical. In RAW, sometimes the advanced skill is rolled by itself, and sometimes it is added to a normal skill. Either way, the advanced skill was functionally orphaned from any specific attribute.

If a GM wants to adopt the rule suggestion of this thread to their game but they see advanced skills an owned by a single attribute and will only have them added to that attribute when a normal skill is not involved, that is of course is their option. My personal preference is to leave it opened ended to my judgment of what is most applicable to each roll.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, what's your take on adding the (A) Skill to multiple Attributes? The (A) Civil Engineering skill, for example, has several Knowledge skills as prerequisites. Should the character be allowed to add either their Technical or Knowledge Attribute to their (A) Skill depending on the circumstances?

RAW is sometimes too all-or-nothing in some respects. Some newer or less confident GMs may need that about their game system, but I don't because I can use my judgment as to when something applies. I was already well past Noob GM status by the time 2e first came out.

In my game, it has never been the case that every advanced skill automatically boosts every use of every prerequisite skill. I have added more skill prerequisites to advanced skills, and I have even added attribute prerequisites to advanced skills. In my game, an advanced skill can have multiple prerequisite skills from multiple attributes, and even multiple attribute prerequisites. In my game, I determine when an advanced skill can boost a normal skill and when it can't.

For an example, let's take a look at my (A) medicine skill's prerequisites:

Quote:
(A) Medicine: Knowledge 2D, First Aid 5D, Scholarship 3D, Species 3D, Perception 2D, Technical 2D, Cybernetics 3D

You can figure out my name-changed Knowledge skills. I view scholarship as being purely academic, and 3D is about equivalent to the general studies course of work for a bachelor degree. So attributes can meet skill requirements, but if your Knowledge is less than 3D than scholarship has to be 3D to qualify for (A) medicine. Should (A) medical boost all scholarship rolls? Of course not. It won't help with literature or creative writing. But it may help with that freshmen biology related check. (A) medicine shouldn't boost all species rolls. It may help with species physiology, and even a species' typical customs regarding medical treatments, but it won't help with a species' art or politics.

And by the way, I figure that there has to be a non-advanced cybernetics skill because non-medically-trained characters that have cybernetics in their bodies should know more about them than a lot of people. This normal Technical skill is just to repair them - It does not allow you to install cybernetics which is still the purview of the advanced (A) medicine skill (which under the rule of this thread's topic would be added to an attribute). But the (A) medicine skill should boost your roll to repair cybernetics.

Regarding your civil engineering question, I don't think that primary uses of the advanced skill would likely ever be most applicable to Knowledge. If you are rolling to design a speeder highway or airport, Technical would probably be most applicable. But that's just me and another GM may disagree.

Regarding civil engineering boosting Knowledge skills like how I was describing for (A) medicine above, I can see that if it is a Knowledge check to see if constructing something is legal and what permits you need before you can start.

All this is just how I prefer to handle it. I figure that a lot of GMs reading this may not want to handle advanced skills how I do in all respects. It may seem too crunchy for some GMs. But to me, the additional prerequisites to advance skills only effect the char gen process and not game play. As far as when advance skills do and don't boost normal skills, that is all judgment as it comes up in the game, so there are no charts or rules to reference, and I have never needed much time to just make a call and keep the game moving. I personally find it easy to do. I've even made some normal skills into advance skills so I have more advance skills in my game than most GMs do in theirs, but I have no trouble with that.

But I figured that a lot of GMs could get behind the basic concept of including an attribute with the primary uses of the advanced skill that do not involve boosting normal skills. It's so simple that it's genius.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very (and possibly very flawed) take in this.

Normal skill is Attribute + Skill dice rolled
this also goes for specialities like blaster-light repeater

as to advanced skills, the way I have worked them into my games is something
like this:

Medice (A) Surgery

you need to perform surgery on someone.
you roll First Aid+attribute, then add this up, he has assessed the patient and made him ready for the "cutting"
He now rolls ONLY hsi advanced skills without Atribute,

We now look at what the first aid roll was, how good was it, and would it make the surgery roll a little easier.....
lets say he rolled very good, enough to warrant a +5 bonus to his surgery skill

he then adds this to the roll and viola this is his surgery roll.

in short

Normal skill + attribute. On 10+ Above Difficulty you get +5 to any advanced task due to good preperations.
on a very bad roll you get a penalty to the taks, lets say you roll -5 under difficulty, now you get a -5 to the advanced task.

Now roll the advanced skill dice, do NOT add attribute but add any bonuses.

it has worked so far,

had a player who is a techie, he learned starship engineering and is currenty working on putting togheter a ship for the crew.
he rolled very ood on the most relevant skills, and gianed a +5 binus to his roll in designing and "have made" an advanced weapon system with pop up turrets for two quad lasers.

He managed the roll and made it, though only with the +5 bi+onus added.
it took thus normal-slow time to make.

had he made the roll without the +5 it would have either taken a little less time or normal-faster

(custom time frames)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I've never thought of advanced skills as being a part of any attribute. On my character sheet, advanced skills have their own section so aren't listed under any attribute.

Under the RAW, I tend to agree. However, with what you're proposing here, I would be more inclined to link (A) Skills to a specific Attribute. Since (A) Skills still stack with their Prerequisites, I think this does a fair job of representing how a character's skill level in a specific area crosses Attribute lines. To return to the (A) Civil Engineering skill, it's more plausible to stack the character's (A) Skill with their Bureaucracy skill than it would be to, say, stack it with Languages or Alien Species.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I've never thought of advanced skills as being a part of any attribute. On my character sheet, advanced skills have their own section so aren't listed under any attribute.

Under the RAW, I tend to agree. However, with what you're proposing here, I would be more inclined to link (A) Skills to a specific Attribute. Since (A) Skills still stack with their Prerequisites, I think this does a fair job of representing how a character's skill level in a specific area crosses Attribute lines.

True. The proposition here that an attribute gets rolled with the primary uses of the advanced skill (meaning when not stacking on a normal skill) does result in making advanced skill seem more applicable to an attribute to me than they ever did in RAW. Like I said about civil engineering above, I'm having a hard time imagining that an advanced engineering action wouldn't be Technical.

But I do have more advanced skills than most GMs and some uses of some of them seem more applicable to multiple attributes. For example, I made acrobatics an advanced skill, and I could see some uses being based more on Strength and others being based on Dexterity (which are both equal attribute prerequisites). So for my house system, I prefer to still leave it open ended to my judgement. And not only that, but also player input. If a player can justify why a certain use of an advanced skill should be with a certain attribute, then I may go with it. But for the purpose of this thread, I was just throwing out a little tangent side comment. If a GM agrees with you that all advanced skills should be anchored in an attribute, then that is their choice to make. The main point here is adding the advanced uses of the advanced skill to an attribute die code, whatever that die code is.

However, it's relevant to the discussion that RAW has given us almost no info to go on for advanced skills. There is nothing in Fantastic Technology: Droids or Hideouts & Strongholds that indicate what attribute all those engineering skills are a part of (but Technical is the logical presumption). So (A) medicine is literally the only advanced skill with rules in RAW that is actually listed as part of an attribute. So if a GM adopting this mod wants to anchor an advanced skill to only one attribute, then that is based on mostly on the precedents of the advanced skills (without any rules governing them) being listed in stat blocks of characters scattered throughout the game line's supplements. Let's take a look at those stat block advanced skills (that aren't in R&E or Hideouts & Strongholds).

KNO
(A) Brainwashing
(A) Drink Mixology

MEC
(A) Bacta Tank Operations - This is weird because the primary function of the Technical (A) medicine skill is bacta tank operation.

PER
(A) Injury/Ailment Diagnosis - This is odd because this seems inherent in first aid and (A) medicine. Unless this skill being used successfully first would make the second roll a lower difficulty, but for bacta tanks you can't go lower than Very Easy. And this is all speculation since there are no rules for this skill.

TEC
(A) Aquatic Vehicle Engineering
(A) Battle Station Engineering
(A) Battle Station Weapon Engineering
(A) Cyborg Technology - Not sure what this would apply to since cyborging is a specialization of the (A) medicine skill.
(A) Genetic Engineering
(A) Lightsaber Repair
(A) Melee Weapon Construction
(A) Metallurgy
(A) Prosthetic Design - Not sure what this would apply to since cyborging is a specialization of the (A) medicine skill.

RAW is a mess and there is a lot left up to the GM!

CRMcNeill wrote:
To return to the (A) Civil Engineering skill, it's more plausible to stack the character's (A) Skill with their Bureaucracy skill than it would be to, say, stack it with Languages or Alien Species.

Of course. I never said advanced skills should always apply to unrelated normal skill. They usually would only apply to some uses of the prerequisite skills. But I personally do leave open to the possibility of advanced skills applying to non-prerequisite skills in specific circumstances. In my game, (A) medicine could maybe apply to a streetwise check regarding organ trafficking, for example.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
For example, I made acrobatics an advanced skill, and I could see some uses being based more on Strength and others being based on Dexterity (which are both equal attribute prerequisites).

I agree Acrobatics should be an (A) Skill, but I'd suggest that giving it a Prerequisite of Climbing/Jumping is a good representation of the Strength aspect.

Quote:
However, it's relevant to the discussion that RAW has given us almost no info to go on for advanced skills.

Oh, absolutely. A lot of what we do have to go on is based almost entirely on inference, as the RAW never clearly spells it out. Like having Advanced Specializations...


Quote:
KNO
(A) Brainwashing
(A) Drink Mixology

Brainwashing seems a bit too powerful as written, and Drink Mixology doesn't seem like it should merit being an entire (A) Skill all to itself. Maybe as a Specialization of some larger Culinary Arts (A) Skill, where a chef / bartender knows flavors well enough to mix and match their own creations.

Although what use that would be in a game is beyond me.

Quote:
MEC
(A) Bacta Tank Operations - This is weird because the primary function of the Technical (A) medicine skill is bacta tank operation.

PER
(A) Injury/Ailment Diagnosis - This is odd because this seems inherent in first aid and (A) medicine. Unless this skill being used successfully first would make the second roll a lower difficulty, but for bacta tanks you can't go lower than Very Easy. And this is all speculation since there are no rules for this skill.

I agree. These both fit better as Specializations of (A) Medicine.

Quote:
TEC
(A) Aquatic Vehicle Engineering
(A) Battle Station Engineering
(A) Battle Station Weapon Engineering
(A) Genetic Engineering
(A) Lightsaber Repair
(A) Melee Weapon Construction
(A) Metallurgy

Interesting. Serious skill bloat, though. My first thought would be to pare the Repair skills down into broad categories (Vehicle Repair, Starship Repair, etc), with the various Types as Specializations under them (Vehicle Repair: Repulsorlift, Vehicle Repair: Walker, etc), then have (A) Vehicle Engineering above them, with its own specializations: (A) Vehicle Engineering: Repulsorlift, (A) Vehicle Engineering: Walker.

Quote:
(A) Cyborg Technology - Not sure what this would apply to since cyborging is a specialization of the (A) medicine skill.
(A) Prosthetic Design - Not sure what this would apply to since cyborging is a specialization of the (A) medicine skill.

My first thought: fold the actual design of Cyborg parts into the Droid Programming/Repair skill, then make the actual attachment on the parts a specialization of (A) Medicine.

Quote:
RAW is a mess and there is a lot left up to the GM!

No lie detected here.

Quote:
They usually would only apply to some uses of the prerequisite skills. But I personally do leave open to the possibility of advanced skills applying to non-prerequisite skills in specific circumstances. In my game, (A) medicine could maybe apply to a streetwise check regarding organ trafficking, for example.

Agreed. My theory there is to allow the character to roll the appropriate skill (Medicine, in this case) against an appropriate Difficulty, then use the degree of success to generate a bonus equal to 1/3 of the success value added to the Streetwise skill roll.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

That's one way to do it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
For example, I made acrobatics an advanced skill, and I could see some uses being based more on Strength and others being based on Dexterity (which are both equal attribute prerequisites).

I agree Acrobatics should be an (A) Skill, but I'd suggest that giving it a Prerequisite of Climbing/Jumping is a good representation of the Strength aspect.

I was just referring to the adding an attribute to the advanced skill. Strength and Dexterity are both equal prerequisites for my (A) acrobatics, but they aren't the only prerequisites. I've got a jumping prerequisite too. And other skills.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Serious skill bloat, though. My first thought would be to pare the Repair skills down into broad categories (Vehicle Repair, Starship Repair, etc), with the various Types as Specializations under them (Vehicle Repair: Repulsorlift, Vehicle Repair: Walker, etc), then have (A) Vehicle Engineering above them, with its own specializations: (A) Vehicle Engineering: Repulsorlift, (A) Vehicle Engineering: Walker.

I like how you keep space separate from non-space vehicles. Combining multiple non-space vehicles into one repair skill would probably be appealing to a lot of people, but that goes beyond this thread because that affects normal skills too. You should post that as its own thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a skill like acrobatics, advanced under climbing/Jumping.

Lets say it needs 5D Climbing, it is a Strenght skill and will be rolled "normally"
but becuse Acrobatics also require you to be very dexttrous and flexible
this skill has an additional prerequisite attribute in Dexterity, however this is not added to any roll but a value the character template must have as minimum attribute level.

So Acrobatics is Str 3D, Dex 3D and Climbing 5D
you roll normally but does NOT add Dex
Dex is the threshold of the Attribute to be able to learn this skill

So in short a Wookies with his very low dex is unlikely to be an acrobat
an average human likewise

a trained human or any "average 3D or more DEX" aliens yes would have a greater aptitued for learning said skill

thei way I think we can tailor advanced skills with multiple Attirbute requirements, Give them ONE that adds to rolls like normal, but keep the other(s) as a mimimum threshold

I can even see advance starship piloting to be starfighter and capital ship
and a 2D MEC individual most likley will not have the aptitude for being a "pilot" in that league.

Someone like a tie pilot, would not have much issues learning "heavier" crafts etc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I like how you keep space separate from non-space vehicles. Combining multiple non-space vehicles into one repair skill would probably be appealing to a lot of people, but that goes beyond this thread because that affects normal skills too. You should post that as its own thread.

Well, since it's Repair-focused, perhaps it would be appropriate for your Starship Repair topic?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I like how you keep space separate from non-space vehicles. Combining multiple non-space vehicles into one repair skill would probably be appealing to a lot of people, but that goes beyond this thread because that affects normal skills too. You should post that as its own thread.

Well, since it's Repair-focused, perhaps it would be appropriate for your Starship Repair topic?

I think you mentioned the concept there first. At least for repair in general if not the specific division of space/non-space. I was struggling with the skill scope of technology types included in starship repair, but it really forced me to work out how I want to handle all starship skills on both the Technical and Mechanical side. I started typing up a reply in that thread last night but got tired and went to bed, so I still have to finish it.

Here you combined non-space vehicle repair skills to make the result more overall equal to the overall scope of starship repair. I think that does address a concern of mine in that thread - It seems like a fairly balanced way of doing it. I have combined a lot of 2e skills into a fewer skills, but I find that I am resistant to combining too many different technology types because it would seem to devalue the Technical attribute too much. So I have gone in different direction. My solution makes Technical more analogous to Mechanical.

My suggestion for you is to also address the weapon repair side of things too. Are they being folded back in with the vehicles? If you don't want to start a separate thread for your concept, I think that thread would be a good one. I think some GMs will like your idea. And it is a good alternative to people that just feel they should combine all vehicles into a single pilot skill and have only one repair skill. (If a GM does that, they might as well just do away with the Mechanical and Technical attributes, which is heresy in my opinion.)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
On a skill like acrobatics, advanced under climbing/Jumping.

Lets say it needs 5D Climbing, it is a Strenght skill and will be rolled "normally"
but becuse Acrobatics also require you to be very dexttrous and flexible
this skill has an additional prerequisite attribute in Dexterity, however this is not added to any roll but a value the character template must have as minimum attribute level.

So Acrobatics is Str 3D, Dex 3D and Climbing 5D
you roll normally but does NOT add Dex
Dex is the threshold of the Attribute to be able to learn this skill

So in short a Wookies with his very low dex is unlikely to be an acrobat
an average human likewise

a trained human or any "average 3D or more DEX" aliens yes would have a greater aptitued for learning said skill

thei way I think we can tailor advanced skills with multiple Attirbute requirements, Give them ONE that adds to rolls like normal, but keep the other(s) as a mimimum threshold

I can even see advance starship piloting to be starfighter and capital ship
and a 2D MEC individual most likley will not have the aptitude for being a "pilot" in that league.

Someone like a tie pilot, would not have much issues learning "heavier" crafts etc

Bingo! That is my almost exactly my mentality for advanced skills. They can have multiple attribute and normal skill prerequisites as minimum thresholds to even qualify for the advanced skill. Acrobats are very strong and dextrous both. I think the minimum DEX and STR thresholds should be above average, so I made the min thresholds 3D for both. Applicable skill prerequisites, like jumping are higher.

The attribute prerequisites I added for (A) medicine (see above in the thread), I kept a little lower because it is an advanced skill that a lot of droids have. But if it is a not a common skill for droids, then I'll make the attribute minimums above average if I think they should be for that skill. But mostly the attribute thresholds are to prevent totally inept characters from having the advanced skill.

The only thing I personally want to do a little farther is leave it open as to which attributes would be most applicable for each attempted action. It may be that Dexterity is the one that is used the most for (A) acrobatics, but if a certain situation's action has a desired effect that I think Strength is more applicable to, than I will say add Strength to it. But if any GM who wants to apply attributes to advanced skill rolls wants it to be a constant attribute for each skill, go for it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I think you mentioned the concept there first. At least for repair in general if not the specific division of space/non-space. I was struggling with the skill scope of technology types included in starship repair, but it really forced me to work out how I want to handle all starship skills on both the Technical and Mechanical side. I started typing up a reply in that thread last night but got tired and went to bed, so I still have to finish it.

I think I had a suggestion involving (A) Skills and Specializations, but it was more based on systems and equipment -> ships/vehicles as combinations of systems and equipment. This suggestion is more in line with, say, how Blasters and Melee Combat are under Dexterity: broad categories of somewhat similar skills that can be broken down into sub-categories.

Quote:
My suggestion for you is to also address the weapon repair side of things too. Are they being folded back in with the vehicles?

Maybe even a simple Weapon Repair skill, which can be broken down into Specializations by type of weapons: Weapon Repair: Melee, Weapon Repair: Blasters, Weapon Repair: Capital Ship Weaponry, etc.

From there, you get (A) Weapon Engineering, and all of its sub-disciplines, as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Maybe even a simple Weapon Repair skill, which can be broken down into Specializations by type of weapons: Weapon Repair: Melee, Weapon Repair: Blasters, Weapon Repair: Capital Ship Weaponry, etc.

From there, you get (A) Weapon Engineering, and all of its sub-disciplines, as well.

I didn't go quite that broad for the base weapon repair skills. I put all weapons repair into two skills: space and non-space. But Engineering already is one base advanced skill with many specializations. I do have one weapon engineering specialization that covers both categories of weapons so has prerequisites of both weapon technical skills.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the issues that to me at least came to mind was simply to re-shuffle some skills,

There are skills under attributes that makes "less sense than it should"
If we take ALL vehicle operation skills, we find these under MEchanical.
Fair ebough, however one is under DEX, Vehicle Blasters.

I wouls argue this should be under Mechanical as well.
then you have some of the "to hit" skills, like Blaster, melee Combat and the like, yet again one is under Strength, as Brawling(to hit)
I am one that would have changed this slightly, maybe placed braling under Dex, bruse you don't need to be hulk to be effective in dealing damage when you use martial arts at least.

or to place the other TO HIT skills under strength, like melee combat .

Once All skills have been reshuffled, I think having the rules for advanced skills as is will work, though adding in that some can have threshold attribute levels to be able to learn.
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've applied that logic and moved several skills around. I doubt we'd have all the same solutions. I'll eventually share my entire skill set with details, but a preview of that is here. I see you already took this idea to a fuller extent here.



EDIT: See the rest of my advanced skill rules in full.
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