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When The Dice Totals 0D Or Less
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: When The Dice Totals 0D Or Less Reply with quote

I've always considered that, if a cumulative dice roll (once all bonuses and penalties are factored in) is 0D or less, it's an automatic failure, with no need to roll. However, an alternative recently occurred to me...

Rather than totaling the dice, bonuses and penalties together in a single roll, make two separate rolls - one for the base dice plus bonuses, and a separate roll for any penalties - then compare the results.

Say, for instance, that a character would normally make a particular dice roll at 6D, but the cumulative penalties total -8D. There's no way to roll -2D, so this would be an automatic failure. However. If you were to roll 6D, then roll 8D and subtract the result from the 6D's total, there's a chance for Wild Dice and RNGesus to come into play. The 6D could roll above average and the 8D could roll well below average, and suddenly what was an automatic failure now has succeeded, against the odds.

Thoughts?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a novel way, for sure.. Normally for me, if you get down to 0d (even if there are pips) due to penalties, there's no roll.. BUT next time i dm, i might give this a whirl.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That throws off the probabilities inherent in the game system (because 0% is a probability). Penalties prevent actions by design. Like take MAPs. There is supposed to be a limit of how many actions you can do in a round because it is only 1-5 seconds. Since characters have skills and attributes of various abilities, MAPs will prevent some things from being attempted (when the skill would be penalized to 0D or below), but not others (for skills higher than the MAP that round). Letting everyone do things beyond their penalized skill dice codes will be a lot of extra actions being attempted that are likely to fail, but there will be those rarer times when they succeed on something when you normally wound't even get to attempt it (except for maybe Fate Point rounds).

To offset this and be a detriment for overuse, I feel it could be an option for players, but choosing to do it means that if the net result is a negative, not only is it a failure but something bad happens on top to worsen the situation compared to if they hadn't tried. I would say this has to be at least a bit worse than a wild die complication. Sometimes it really is better to not try to do something at all then to try and fail spectacularly. A positive result but under the difficulty would just be a normal failure.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could MAYBE see allowing it, on only certiain heroic actions (NOT all combat in general), to maintain that issue of MAPS having a purpose...
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, there's another option if the penalties have driven you that far down... spend a Force point.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Letting everyone do things beyond their penalized skill dice codes will be a lot of extra actions being attempted that are likely to fail, but there will be those rarer times when they succeed on something when you normally wound't even get to attempt it (except for maybe Fate Point rounds)...
MrNexx wrote:
Of course, there's another option if the penalties have driven you that far down... spend a Force point.

Right. Oops, I see that above I accidentally called Force Points my name for them (inspired by D6 Space), Fate Points.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Letting everyone do things beyond their penalized skill dice codes will be a lot of extra actions being attempted that are likely to fail, but there will be those rarer times when they succeed on something when you normally wound't even get to attempt it (except for maybe Fate Point rounds)...
MrNexx wrote:
Of course, there's another option if the penalties have driven you that far down... spend a Force point.

Right. Oops, I see that above I accidentally called Force Points my name for them (inspired by D6 Space), Fate Points.


At least your version of d6 Space exists. Wink
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have allowed "0D" rolls, which includes 0D+1 and 0D+2. The player rolls 1D:

6 - This 6 counts as a zero but it explodes and the subsequent roll(s) provide the die roll result. The roll still could fail or succeed depending on the difficulty.

2-5 - Zero, failure

1 - Failure + Complication
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That throws off the probabilities inherent in the game system (because 0% is a probability).

But there are circumstances where a 0% probability is inappropriate. For example, let's take an average human who's never fired a gun before (Dex 2D, no added dice in Firearms). Put this human in a booth at a gun range and give him a target and a pistol, and then blindfold him (-4D modifier due to absolute darkness, which is the closest thing WEG has to a Blind penalty). The character's aggregate Firearms skill equivalent is -2D, yet there is still an infinitesimal chance (as in, >0%) that, if he fires the pistol downrange, he will still hit the target. He won't automatically miss.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Right. Oops, I see that above I accidentally called Force Points my name for them (inspired by D6 Space), Fate Points.

It occurred to me as I read this earlier that "Destiny" gets used a lot in the SWU instead of Fate. Destiny Points, perhaps?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Right. Oops, I see that above I accidentally called Force Points my name for them (inspired by D6 Space), Fate Points.

It occurred to me as I read this earlier that "Destiny" gets used a lot in the SWU instead of Fate. Destiny Points, perhaps?

Not for me. Destiny Points may not be inappropriate, but I like Fate Points better. D6 Space, which is this game's 3rd edition in every way except IP, calls them Fate Points. It still starts with an f, so Fate Points have the same abbreviation as Force Points. I only changed the name because of naming my extranormal/metaphysical attribute The Force.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
That throws off the probabilities inherent in the game system (because 0% is a probability).

But there are circumstances where a 0% probability is inappropriate. For example, let's take an average human who's never fired a gun before (Dex 2D, no added dice in Firearms). Put this human in a booth at a gun range and give him a target and a pistol, and then blindfold him (-4D modifier due to absolute darkness, which is the closest thing WEG has to a Blind penalty). The character's aggregate Firearms skill equivalent is -2D, yet there is still an infinitesimal chance (as in, >0%) that, if he fires the pistol downrange, he will still hit the target. He won't automatically miss.


THat's assuming that human, could even fire it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
That throws off the probabilities inherent in the game system (because 0% is a probability).

But there are circumstances where a 0% probability is inappropriate. For example, let's take an average human who's never fired a gun before (Dex 2D, no added dice in Firearms). Put this human in a booth at a gun range and give him a target and a pistol, and then blindfold him (-4D modifier due to absolute darkness, which is the closest thing WEG has to a Blind penalty). The character's aggregate Firearms skill equivalent is -2D, yet there is still an infinitesimal chance (as in, >0%) that, if he fires the pistol downrange, he will still hit the target. He won't automatically miss.

True, but that is real world shooting at unmoving target. For cinematic action purposes, I don't have a problem limiting character actions by how many dice they have to roll. But MAP penalties are supposed to prevent the character from doing too many things, so maybe using this should depend on what the penalty is based on. They shouldn't be able to get a shot off if MAPped out of actions, but maybe they should for pure darkness.

That may also be a good argument for changing some penalties from lowering die codes to adding to difficulties numbers instead, like maybe darkness. If so, then with the wild die explosion, there is always a chance, however small, that you could point your gun blindly in the dark and hit something. Hmm.

What do you think about my other suggestion, that choosing to do use this and rolling a negative result means something bad happens beyond mere failure (positive but under the difficulty number)?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
THat's assuming that human, could even fire it.

What does that even mean?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
That throws off the probabilities inherent in the game system (because 0% is a probability).

But there are circumstances where a 0% probability is inappropriate. For example, let's take an average human who's never fired a gun before (Dex 2D, no added dice in Firearms). Put this human in a booth at a gun range and give him a target and a pistol, and then blindfold him (-4D modifier due to absolute darkness, which is the closest thing WEG has to a Blind penalty). The character's aggregate Firearms skill equivalent is -2D, yet there is still an infinitesimal chance (as in, >0%) that, if he fires the pistol downrange, he will still hit the target. He won't automatically miss.


This might be a situation where random-roll difficulties come into play, using Whill's rules above.

So, let's say you have a -2D to hit. So, you roll your Wild Die, and only your wild die, while the GM rolls 2D. Unless the GM rolls absolute crap, your wild die is going to have to explode to exceed that 2D penalty, and going to have to explode multiple times to do that and beat the difficulty. You could spend a character point to negate one die of difficulty, or a force point to double your dice (which, in this case, would put you at a flat 0D), but you still have a tiny change of succeeding.

(I'd actually make it a -3d penalty, thinking about it... since you're giving them a free die in the form of the Wild Die)
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