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Raven Redstar
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Location: Salem, OR
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 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Here's a preliminary list of the creatures that, IMO, need to be re-Scaled, as selected from the 2R&E Rulebook, the Star Wars Sourcebook and the Movie Trilogy Special Edition Sourcebook. Any creature from those books that is not listed remains Character-Scale.Tiny (-2D)
-Rawwk
Swoop (+2D)
-Cracian Thumper
-Dewback
-Dianoga
-Dragonsnake
-Tauntaun
Speeder (+4D)
-Bantha
-Ghest
-Knobby Spider
-Rancor
-Ronto
-Swamp Slug
-Ukian Torbull
Starship (+6D)
-Space Slug (Normal)
Walker (+8D)
-Krayt Dragon
-Sarlacc
Frigate (+10D)
-Beldon (Small)
-Velker
Destroyer (+12D)
-Space Slug (Large)
Dreadnought (+16D)
-Beldon (Large) |
These all look okay to me!
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | The Beldon isn't really an attacker; it's a floating gas bag that feeds on algae and nutrients suspended in the clouds of Bespin, and is described as being quite peaceful. In fact, considering it's specifically described as using "electrolocomotion" to propel itself through the clouds, some sort of electric "taser" effect might be appropriate to help it stave off predators (the Velker, basically a carnivorous flying manta ray the size of a light cruiser), but no such thing is listed.
Considering how massive these things can get, giving them a base Strength of 1D within their size range seems appropriate. |
I get that, but, it's besides the point, fwiw.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I get that, but, it's besides the point, fwiw. |
The cloud monster likely wasn't the best example for your point, either. But in this case, because of the way the Scale Rule is structured, an enormous creature measuring 10km across would be 8D more difficult to hit with a Capital-Scale Turbolaser than would the Executor at its (WEG official) length of 8,000 meters (due to the Scale modifiers of +4D for Walker vs. +12D for Capital Ship).
If a creature should be more fragile / susceptible to certain kinds of damage, than that should be resolved by some method other than Scale, due to the trade-offs involved in the Scale Rules.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Agreed. Perhaps it could have a "penalty" to soaks from piercing attacks.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I get that, but, it's besides the point, fwiw. |
The cloud monster likely wasn't the best example for your point, either. But in this case, because of the way the Scale Rule is structured, an enormous creature measuring 10km across would be 8D more difficult to hit with a Capital-Scale Turbolaser than would the Executor at its (WEG official) length of 8,000 meters (due to the Scale modifiers of +4D for Walker vs. +12D for Capital Ship).
If a creature should be more fragile / susceptible to certain kinds of damage, than that should be resolved by some method other than Scale, due to the trade-offs involved in the Scale Rules. |
Yes, yes. Of course.
The point wasn't about a specific creature with specific features. But rather, that size and scale are not (necessarily) the same thing (whether we're talking about a cloud beast or space ship or whatever).
I'll reuse my fly swatter example.
Trying to target a fly with, say, a blaster is an exercise in futility. But with a fly swatter, there is a good chance of hitting it. If we extrapolate the as-written scale system, we can reason that a human has tens of thousands of times more mass than a fly and is thousands of times larger (several orders of magnitude). Nevertheless, his bare hands are "character scale" weapons, as is a blaster.
However, it is far easier to slap a flying insect out of the air than it is to shoot one with a blaster, so the attack itself is "scaled" according to the intended target (whereas a kick or a "knock out" punch is entirely likely to miss the fly... and a blaster even more so), despite different attacks coming from the same character scale source.
The other issue is that requiring an attack roll against a target that is 10km (over 6 miles!!) across is just.... irresponsible GMing. Unless the shooter is so far from the object that it could reasonably miss (that is, firing from orbit, where a few cm of targeting error on the shooter's end could result in hitting somewhere in an entirely different city).
At walker scale, targets are much closer than at capitol scale, scale is also an indicator of combat range, not just size.
The only time an attack roll should really matter is when the attack targets a specific spot on the larger scale object (thus, reducing the target's scale bonus to resist damage), or when the distance to the target is at the same scale as the attacker (using a lightsaber to cut open the hull of an ISD should not require an attack roll, nor should the ISD get a "soak" bonus... rather, there would just be a relatively tiny hole in the hull that probably has no affect on the performance of the ship other than creating an opening to vacuum which would likely be immediately and automatically sealed off anyway.
Or, if we do add the soak bonus, then it's "only fair" that if the lightsaber rolls high enough (force point?) that the attacker could completely destroy the ISD simply by cutting a "character scale" hole anywhere in its hull.
In any case, it seems to me that the distance at which combat takes place matters.
In the case of creatures, which will primarily be using melee attacks, I'll refer back to the fly example.
If a rancor wants to attack a human, it could either roll at its standard scale (say, walker), and grant the target +4D bonus to defend, or it can go for the "fly swatter" version of its attacks, rolling at character scale, but not getting the damage bonus.
So, with a 4D (walker scale) strength, the rancor could either roll 4D to brawl the human (and if it hits, roll 8D damage) and the human gets the scale bonus (+4D) to its reaction, or the rancor could forgo the damage bonus to "swat" the human, but only at 4D damage, since it's not using its full power (knock out punch equivalent) to attack.
Another example would be using a shotgun with bird shot. Great against little creatures that are hard to hit at range. Nearly useless against "character scale" targets except under very specific conditions (such that the characteristics of bird shot are leveraged for a completely different effect... essentially, in this case, the shooter accepts an impractically short effective range to try and employ bird shot against a more substantial target... it puts out "full human scale damage" but over a shorter distance than would proper buck shot or slugs; at bird shot's intended distance, a human scale target would get a scale bonus to soak, essentially, despite the shotgun being a normally "human/character scale" weapon. With bird shot, it is configured for use by humans against smaller scale targets with all appropriate trade-offs).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | The point wasn't about a specific creature with specific features. But rather, that size and scale are not (necessarily) the same thing (whether we're talking about a cloud beast or space ship or whatever). |
I think where we're disagreeing here is over how this rule should be applied. You seem to be arguing that it should be applied as a function of Size/Scale, even though it isn't. My point is that, while your point is valid, and should be addressed, it should be addressed as a function of Range, not Scale. There's more than enough room in the rules for a layered system where both factors are addressed separately without compounding them into a single function. I am very much in favor of your idea of weapons having an ideal range, and have been wrestling with the general concept of range for some time. I would much prefer some sort of uniform range band system, where weapons function / have different relative Difficulties based on said range bands, but have yet to come up with a rule that I am content with.
| Quote: | | Trying to target a fly with, say, a blaster is an exercise in futility. But with a fly swatter, there is a good chance of hitting it. |
This is actually something I'm wrestling with on some of these stats. Most attacks under the RAW are treated as point attacks, not area ones. However, most of these creatures feature some sort of attack that cover an area measured in square meters or more. A flyswatter works against a fly because its effect is spread across a wider area, just as a bantha's headbutt or a rancor's claw swipe is more effective because it has "area" which thus increases its chances of a hit. My solution at the moment is to simply give most of these creatures an additional 2D or 3D in Brawling to compensate for the offsetting penalty of the Scale increase.
| Quote: | | The other issue is that requiring an attack roll against a target that is 10km (over 6 miles!!) across is just.... irresponsible GMing. Unless the shooter is so far from the object that it could reasonably miss (that is, firing from orbit, where a few cm of targeting error on the shooter's end could result in hitting somewhere in an entirely different city). |
Unless the combat was occurring with a weapon where there is a reasonable chance of a miss, which could be the case with Capital-Scale energy weapons if the range is long enough. Certainly, requiring an attack roll for a Character-Scale weapon against such a target would be silly, since the character would basically have to be standing on the thing to be within range of hitting it. However, as I said above, that's a function of range, not size.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This is actually something I'm wrestling with on some of these stats. Most attacks under the RAW are treated as point attacks, not area ones. However, most of these creatures feature some sort of attack that cover an area measured in square meters or more. A flyswatter works against a fly because its effect is spread across a wider area, just as a bantha's headbutt or a rancor's claw swipe is more effective because it has "area" which thus increases its chances of a hit. My solution at the moment is to simply give most of these creatures an additional 2D or 3D in Brawling to compensate for the offsetting penalty of the Scale increase. . |
Perhaps, when making area attacks, like the above claw slap, you could treat missing much like with grenades.. It 'lessens' the damage done, not eliminates it by saying the attack flat out missed?
Say for ever 4 under the to hit number, the attacked missed by, 1d of scaling difference on damage is ignored.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure grenades are the best example, mostly because of the way the damage drops off. A grenade's effect is going to fall off gradually at first, then faster as distance increases. With a swat from a clawed hand a meter across, there's going to be a narrow window between full damage and a complete whiff, and IMO, that fits better probability-wise with a successful attack / low damage combination.
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MrNexx
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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A claw swipe might be represented by a variable defense bonus.
So, I have 8D brawling, because I am a big scary monster. If I try to claw swipe, I'm aiming at Bob, but Alison and Cathy are on either side. I might roll 8D, but Alison and Cathy get +1D to their defense skill, since my sweep is less targeted at them.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'd be more inclined to have a swipe from a larger attacker affect all targets in a particular fire arc, with maybe a +2D modifier to hit due to the larger scale of the "weapon".
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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It's an interesting paradox, that the size of an attacker will simultaneously make a smaller object harder to hit and potentially make it easier by dint of the larger attacker making maximum use of sweeping-style motions.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Maybe then, for larger critters, when they DO attack they can attack Multiple targets with NO maps!?
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe then, for larger critters, when they DO attack they can attack Multiple targets with NO maps!? |
I could get behind this, as long as the victims are within the arc of a single attack. GM's discretion.
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Could these rules be adapted to special situations like a massive swarm attack?
Hundreds of small/medium creatures treated as one walker/capital ship opponent?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, any natural attack that allows a creature to "hit everybody" or get a bonus on attack or damage should always come with a trade off.
My original suggestion was to allow the creature to modulate it's scale modifier (up to it's max damage, while taking a reciprocal penalty on its attack).
But another idea could be to consider the creature "over extended" during/after the attack, imposing a penalty to its reaction skills for the round. Coupled with the RoE attack/damage rules, this could give smaller attackers the opportunity they need to win ("wait for it to try to bite, then shove the spear into it's mouth!"... or some such).
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