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D6 Space Wars?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
I believe in my archives I have the Space Opera PDF you refer too (I have a large collection of Physical and Digital D6 material I collected and used for references in rules arbitration over the years). I can try to find it if it is needed for reference.

I have the D6 Space Opera PDF and was going to put it in the Library, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
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Odea Ionstrike
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhat related: Is the D6 Space Opera document that has a version "1.2" marker on it the last version that was released? I saw a discussion elsewhere of a 1.3 version but I've never found that document myself.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can check my archives to see what versions I have. I do believe I have more than one version. It might be a while as they are not readily accessible.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odea Ionstrike wrote:
Somewhat related: Is the D6 Space Opera document that has a version "1.2" marker on it the last version that was released? I saw a discussion elsewhere of a 1.3 version but I've never found that document myself.

KageRyu wrote:
I can check my archives to see what versions I have. I do believe I have more than one version. It might be a while as they are not readily accessible.

The version in the Library is "1.2." If anyone has a "1.3" and there are any significant differences, I'd like to see it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: D6 Space Wars Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
Would there be an effort to scrub the IP and keep the page numbers roughly similar, or would new formatting take precedence? The former sounds like a lot of layout work.

There's no possible way the page #s will be in any way similar because we aren't just scrubbing the IP text. It would also be a full removal of all images. The proposed document will be much shorter than R&E. It won't be pretty, but the rules will all be there. If you are familiar with WEG's DC Universe core rule book, take a look at the D6 Legend document for a comparison. It is going to be a no-frills text version of the game rules. And it is going to be a lot of editing work anyway because the source available was poorly OCRed...<Do not talk about fight club.>
MrNexx wrote:
Whill wrote:
Some spell and monster names, check. I think it is still safe to say that R&E has a lot more IP that would need removed than AD&D did. I would describe Star Wars R&E as IP-heavy since it is a licensed game based on a big multi-media franchise.

Definitely. I think you might be able to get away with a lot of find and replace, if you have a text of the original... which I think would be easier than a hand-transcription.

Does anyone have a decent text version of R&E so we can make an IP-free PDF version? PM me.
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sithholocron
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: D6 Space Wars Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Whill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
Would there be an effort to scrub the IP and keep the page numbers roughly similar, or would new formatting take precedence? The former sounds like a lot of layout work.

There's no possible way the page #s will be in any way similar because we aren't just scrubbing the IP text. It would also be a full removal of all images. The proposed document will be much shorter than R&E. It won't be pretty, but the rules will all be there. If you are familiar with WEG's DC Universe core rule book, take a look at the D6 Legend document for a comparison. It is going to be a no-frills text version of the game rules. And it is going to be a lot of editing work anyway because the source available was poorly OCRed...<Do not talk about fight club.>
MrNexx wrote:
Whill wrote:
Some spell and monster names, check. I think it is still safe to say that R&E has a lot more IP that would need removed than AD&D did. I would describe Star Wars R&E as IP-heavy since it is a licensed game based on a big multi-media franchise.

Definitely. I think you might be able to get away with a lot of find and replace, if you have a text of the original... which I think would be easier than a hand-transcription.

Does anyone have a decent text version of R&E so we can make an IP-free PDF version? PM me.


I am actually at the start of converting it to IP free, I am chapter two at the moment, I needed to make it OGL friendly for my RPG release for next year. Had no damn clue it would take so long to strip something to it's bare-bones haha. Once I am done converting I can share it for everyone. not sure on the ETA of that though as I have work and other obligations, hopefully end of year. if everything goes to plan.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: D6 Space Wars Reply with quote

sithholocron wrote:
Whill wrote:
Does anyone have a decent text version of R&E so we can make an IP-free PDF version? PM me.


I am actually at the start of converting it to IP free, I am chapter two at the moment, I needed to make it OGL friendly for my RPG release for next year. Had no damn clue it would take so long to strip something to it's bare-bones haha. Once I am done converting I can share it for everyone. not sure on the ETA of that though as I have work and other obligations, hopefully end of year. if everything goes to plan.

sithholocron, I very much appreciate your efforts!
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest challenge would be the inability to include any Star Wars artwork. Is this a text only production?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I think the biggest challenge would be the inability to include any Star Wars artwork. Is this a text only production?

This is an intentional effort to remove all Star Wars IP. Removing images is easy, but the challenging part will be in making sure no textual IP is left in it.

This could be a text-only production, but I think there is royalty free sci-fi art out there that could be used if someone wanted to put that in the layout. Or generous artists could donate the use of their art. I'm not sure what sithholocron's final vision is but my idea was just to have an Open D6 version of the R&E ruleset.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is still going on, I would consider contributing some of my artwork. It would likely have to be already existing work. Due to numerous health issues I do not do traditional media illustration any longer, and currently My graphics computer is dead and I am unable to replace it. If I do get a new graphics machine and art tablet, I can generate new work...but with the state of my life and health right now I can not put a time frame on that.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an absolutely fascinating thread - can't believe I missed it.
Coincidently. I am working on something similar. .

TLDR:
My group is starting up D6 again, and I am on a project in creating a new rules set for us;

* Open D6 as the base (adventure version).
* SW Content added back in.
* Redesigned Force rules.
* Other house rules from various sources.
* A few modern mechanics from other d6 games.

Longer Version

The history and reasons for choices made would be a way too long of a post - so this is the "shorter longer version". Wink

I am working on a version that is OpenD6 + Star Wars content + a few other house from more modern systems (mythic d6, savage world).

This includes the inclusion of many house rules (some from my old days, many inspired from here); one of which is a simplified version of the force powers (simple as in rules, not depth and options).

This includes a completely rewritten force powers section, as inspired by many of the conversations here. It uses a Force Attribute, and Force Powers as advanced skills (using how advanced skills are structured in later d6 texts - they are more like ability trees than directly used skills).

Besides game systems evolving over time, we have a LOT more SW content (no, won't go opinions on that content) than they had back in the day.

Anyway, this turned out to be a HUGE task - I am done with a few sections (intro, quick start, skills consolidation, force powers) and still working on the rest

- I have the rules - just takes time to format and organize (even the later versions of d6 had some room for clarity and better organization).

It is about 200 pages - as it gets further along, IF there is interest, I am happy to share with others for feedback on design and clarity.

(yes whill, I know I need to share the force powers...I am on a second edit, and formatting - not sure best way to share however....).

Mine is heavily customized and has a lot of stuff in it - so I am not in ANY way suggesting my work is a suitable replacement for any of the other projects in this thread - I am sharing because it uses some of the same source materials and similar concepts of "holy cow there was more d6 after 2.5!!!".

best wishes in all you do!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
...I just feel there should be an Open D6 document with the exact game system of SW R&E...


KageRyu wrote:
If this is still going on, I would consider contributing some of my artwork. It would likely have to be already existing work. Due to numerous health issues I do not do traditional media illustration any longer, and currently My graphics computer is dead and I am unable to replace it. If I do get a new graphics machine and art tablet, I can generate new work...

That's awesome. I haven't heard from sithholocron in a while. Maybe he will see this and chime in.

pakman wrote:
Coincidently. I am working on something similar. .

TLDR:
My group is starting up D6 again, and I am on a project in creating a new rules set for us;

* Open D6 as the base (adventure version).
* SW Content added back in...

I'm very much looking forward to your work, but it is a key distinction that the project proposed in this thread is not very similar to this.

The Purgatory-era WEG owner himself reported on running a Star Wars campaign using D6 Space for the ruleset, which is Open D6 with Star Wars IP added in. Yours is similar to that. The differences of that and yours being you are using D6 Adventure as a basis and incorporating your own tweaks.

What I proposed here is actually the opposite of Open D6+Star Wars IP. It is R&E minus SW IP. Distill the SW out of SW 2eR&E and make an Open D6 document that is the exact game system of R&E. Not to diminish anything that came later, but in many important ways, R&E is the pinnacle of the D6 System. At the very least, it is a very significant step in D6 history. The only reason that its system is not represented in the body of Open D6 works is simply because no one has done the work to remove the Star Wars from it.

pakman wrote:
...
* Redesigned Force rules.
* Other house rules from various sources.
* A few modern mechanics from other d6 games.

Longer Version

The history and reasons for choices made would be a way too long of a post - so this is the "shorter longer version". Wink

I am working on a version that is OpenD6 + Star Wars content + a few other house from more modern systems (mythic d6, savage world).

This includes the inclusion of many house rules (some from my old days, many inspired from here); one of which is a simplified version of the force powers (simple as in rules, not depth and options).

This includes a completely rewritten force powers section, as inspired by many of the conversations here. It uses a Force Attribute, and Force Powers as advanced skills (using how advanced skills are structured in later d6 texts - they are more like ability trees than directly used skills).

Besides game systems evolving over time, we have a LOT more SW content (no, won't go opinions on that content) than they had back in the day.

Anyway, this turned out to be a HUGE task - I am done with a few sections (intro, quick start, skills consolidation, force powers) and still working on the rest

- I have the rules - just takes time to format and organize (even the later versions of d6 had some room for clarity and better organization).

It is about 200 pages - as it gets further along, IF there is interest, I am happy to share with others for feedback on design and clarity.

(yes whill, I know I need to share the force powers...I am on a second edit, and formatting - not sure best way to share however....).

Google Docs seems to be a good way to go for sharing things these days. Looking forward to it no matter how long it takes.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm very much looking forward to your work, but it is a key distinction that the project proposed in this thread is not very similar to this.


Absolutely agree - thus my disclaimer that I am not suggesting they are the same, as I incorporate many of the house rules from here, rules from later editions, etc.

mine is merely a reference point -as the goal that started me on my journey was wanting D6 text I could edit with my house rules, as the REUP pdf is too difficult to edit otherwise ..... (could you imagine trying to put in your skills or damage rules ... ).

Quote:
The Purgatory-era WEG owner himself reported on running a Star Wars campaign using D6 Space for the ruleset, which is Open D6 with Star Wars IP added in. Yours is similar to that. The differences of that and yours being you are using D6 Adventure as a basis and incorporating your own tweaks.


Agreed - they are the same core rules - almost word for word.

The biggest difference is the skills and attributes -
Space uses the attributes form star wars 2.5
I prefer the attributes from D6 Adventure (it addresses many of the topics we see in house rules here on the pit - including "the wookie problem" - but that is another thread).

Although my most recent effort is mostly from OpenD6, I started with D6 adventure; as copying text out of reup was a pain, and d6 space has many issue working with it (has to do with the internal structure of the pdf and fonts I think).

Quote:
What I proposed here is actually the opposite of Open D6+Star Wars IP. It is R&E minus SW IP. Distill the SW out of SW 2eR&E and make an Open D6 document that is the exact game system of R&E
.

That is great - I salute the folks who do that.

Quote:
Not to diminish anything that came later, but in many important ways, R&E is the pinnacle of the D6 System.


Honestly - not going to agree or disagree with that one.

While I had tremendous fun and beloved memories of the many years of playing R&E - how much of that was the times vs. the rule system itself - I mean, I even had a ton of house rules back then - and endless discussions on them on swrpg.net back in the day...

The pit has tons of house rules (many great ones from you and others like you - heck your skill list is closer to d6 space than it is reup).

In fact, the house rules here, and the perceived gaps they were designed to address, was one of the contributor factors for me to give up on editing 2.5.

1 - A lot of the house rules here are covered in later editions.
2 - Getting text out of REUP or doing OCR 2.5 was a beast!

Any debate on various versions however would be another thread - one which honestly I have no desire to be part of.

Quote:
At the very least, it is a very significant step in D6 history.

Absolutely 100% agree.

It was a great version that has built upon the works coming before it.

Quote:
The only reason that its system is not represented in the body of Open D6 works is simply because no one has done the work to remove the Star Wars from it.


I salute that effort. I do. it is a big task.
But I would contend that the 1996 D6 System Edition IS that work - maybe with the "revised and expanded Rules Companion" already in there for some of the minor mechanics changes.

I look at them more as year editions, than version editions, after all, this is about D6 without IP.

D6 - 1986 version: Ghostbusters
D6 - 1987 version: Star Wars 1st edition
D6 - 1989 version- Star Wars 1st - rules companion edition
D6 - 1992 version: Star Wars 2nd "blue book".
D6 - 1996 version: Star Wars 2.5 R&E
D6 - 1996 version: The D6 System edition.
D6 - 199x - version: IP variants: (Indiana Jones, Hercules, Space Opera, etc.).
D6 - 2003 version: D6 Space, Fantasy, Adventure (same core game; different attributes and skills).
D6 - 2007 versions: Open D6 - minor revisions to D6 core game, with OGL.

There are a few more variants in there (so no, no one needs to post "but you forgot...") - but my point is we have had many versions of D6 rules over the years.

Now, if some folks want a "pure" 1996 - 2.5 Version D6 - that is cool - to each their own.
(I had used Free OCR 5.41 and had scanned about 30 pages of it -before giving up and moving on).

Or you could copy text from reup - if you wanted to incorporate rules additions from later books - rules of engagement, far orbit etc. But it also contains some rules from D6 Space/Adventure (the background options).

Or edit them out, depending on if you want the 2.5 book itself, or the 2.5 "system".

Regardless of all that - my best wishes to everyone on such a project!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Or you could copy text from reup - if you wanted to incorporate rules additions from later books - rules of engagement, far orbit etc. But it also contains some rules from D6 Space/Adventure (the background options).

Or edit them out, depending on if you want the 2.5 book itself, or the 2.5 "system".

My proposal of this thread is not to add in a lot of other rules from other books. SW R&E is a core D6 book, so an "R&E minus SW" Open D6 document ("2.5") would be a functional core book too. The other SW books would be almost as equally usable with it as the original R&E. It would just take some reskinning of skill names and such in either direction.

See below for more comments on "REUP."

pakman wrote:
Whill wrote:
The only reason that its system is not represented in the body of Open D6 works is simply because no one has done the work to remove the Star Wars from it.

I salute that effort. I do. it is a big task.
...
Now, if some folks want a "pure" 1996 - 2.5 Version D6 - that is cool - to each their own.
(I had used Free OCR 5.41 and had scanned about 30 pages of it -before giving up and moving on).
...
Regardless of all that - my best wishes to everyone on such a project!

Yeah, I think my quote was understating it. It isn't just the removal of the Star Wars IP. That's actually probably the easier part. The hard part is to have a workable text version of SW 2eR&E to create the document from.

pakman wrote:
I prefer the attributes from D6 Adventure (it addresses many of the topics we see in house rules here on the pit - including "the wookie problem" - but that is another thread).

It does, but along the way it introduces other issues into the game that I don't want. So I choose to address the Wookiee problem in other ways that work for me.

pakman wrote:
heck your skill list is closer to d6 space than it is reup

In some ways, yes. D6 Space was an influence, for sure. But with all of my game's many sources of influences, my game system is closer to R&E than another other variation of D6 (Star Wars and otherwise). The damage/wound system is tweaked from R&E. Movement is slightly tweaked in only one way. The combat round is the same except for slightly tweaked initiative. Starting character rules and character advancement are slightly tweaked. The six normal attributes are the same with a slight shift in scope on some of them, and the skill list is altered (some skills combined or in a very few cases split). The Force is tweaked. Stats are tweaked.

pakman wrote:
I look at them more as year editions, than version editions, after all, this is about D6 without IP.

D6 - 1986 version: Ghostbusters

The former owner of WEG said that he doesn't view Ghostbusters (1e) as true D6. He called it "proto-D6". In his view, Star Wars 1e was the first version of 'the D6 game system'. I agree with him.

Now Ghostbuster 2e that came out during WEG Star Wars? I couldn't say because I don't have Gb 2e. I'd be somewhat interested in hearing if it incorporated more of Star Wars D6 system into it and if it was enough to be considered "D6", but I don't care too much as I am not a fan of that franchise and don't have much interest in ever getting Gb 2e.

pakman wrote:
D6 - 1987 version: Star Wars 1st edition
D6 - 1989 version- Star Wars 1st - rules companion edition
D6 - 1992 version: Star Wars 2nd "blue book".
D6 - 1996 version: Star Wars 2.5 R&E
D6 - 1996 version: The D6 System edition.
D6 - 199x - version: IP variants: (Indiana Jones, Hercules, Space Opera, etc.)...

There are a few more variants in there (so no, no one needs to post "but you forgot...")

Fine, I won't mention the SW 1e Rules Upgrade (pre-Rules Companion) or SW IAG. Cool

pakman wrote:
but my point is we have had many versions of D6 rules over the years.

Definitely!

And each Star Wars sub-edition is even very distinct from the rest. As I pointed out here, they each substantially change the combat round, for one thing. It is clear that WEG's definition of a "whole edition" for Star Wars was the stats. Any "1e" book can use any of the three variations of 1e rules because they all have the same stats. The same can be said for 2e books and both variations of 2e rules. Poor IAG never got any other releases from the core box set.

By WEG's standard for Star Wars, my personal game system would warrant being called a "third edition" due to the stats criteria. But it is closer to R&E than the officially published sub-editions of Star Wars are to each other.

pakman wrote:
D6 - 2003 version: D6 Space, Fantasy, Adventure (same core game; different attributes and skills).
D6 - 2007 versions: Open D6 - minor revisions to D6 core game, with OGL.

I am not aware of any "2007 revisions." But I guess we should back up and clarify that the term "Open D6" has two main connotations that I have seen.

One is the technical term, the entire body of works released as part of the Open D6 OGL. Most (but not quite all) of the Purgatory era D6 books, The D6 System ("D6 toolkit"), D6 Legend (DC Universe minus the DC IP), etc.

Two is a subset of the above, the three Purgatory "core" books (D6 Space and the two other-genre spinoffs, D6 Adventure and D6 Fantasy).

By "D6 core game" and other statements it seems like you are referencing the three core books of the second connotation above as a basis, but either way, I am not aware of any revisions the game system of those that happened when these went OGL. The OGL PDFs I have seen of those books are identical to my original published hardcover books, except for the OGL page added to the PDFs.

Would you mind providing some specific details on the 2007 revisions, and the source of these revisions?

pakman wrote:
But I would contend that the 1996 D6 System Edition IS that work - maybe with the "revised and expanded Rules Companion" already in there for some of the minor mechanics changes.

"IS"? "Minor"? I must politely, vehemently disagree with that contention. I just skimmed through my copy of The D6 System (1996) to refresh my memory, and I still find it to be very different from R&E in many ways. Even putting aside that the focus of The D6 System to be genre general/adaptable and functionally optional add-ons like advantages/disadvantages.

The D6 System has three combat round/initiative systems and they are all different than R&E. Range reduces the skill roll instead of increases the difficulties. The damage/wound system is also different than all version of Star Wars. Movement rules have gone back to 2e (Blue Vader). The D6 System's four "core attributes" are basically Dexterity and Strength, each split into half. Supernatural powers are very different. The release year view of D6 variations falls apart for 1996.

My proposal of this thread (R&E minus SW) would have the same genre focus as R&E, so it would be galactic war space opera. It was have all the crunch of R&E. There definitely would be a skimming of IP fluff along the way, for sure.

Anyway, I contend that the only thing currently in existence that "IS" (with capitals) the same game system as R&E is REUP, a fan version of R&E. The revisions are mostly just minor things like tweaked stats for Twi'leks and the like. Yes, it does have a functionally removable advantages/disadvantages system. But it is much more "E" than "R". REUP is functionally R&E by intention (of the REUP design team).

The next closest thing to R&E's game system is the Metabarons RPG core book. WEG literally took R&E's text and chapter layout, stripped out the Star Wars IP and replaced it with the Jodoverse IP, with some very minor further tweaks like minor skill merging, its addition of honor rules and replacement for the Dark Side, etc.

pakman wrote:
Any debate on various versions however would be another thread - one which honestly I have no desire to be part of.

Cool. I am not posting in an attempt to debate. This is a public open forum, so any forum user participating in any thread is free to 'tap out' at any time, and likewise any forum users not previously involved in the discussion can jump in at any time. And the largest population is lurkers who are just reading various views expressed here and not participating in the past or future. I often post for the continuity and completeness of lurker experience. Smile
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