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garhkal
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 Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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What he said. Anything more than a half move (so for a human that's 5 meters or less), is an actual move action.. So you COULD say, one gets a free Half move, as part OF dodging.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Tangential question: as Terrain Difficulty increases, should it provide Cover modifiers?
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | RAW, "cautious movement" (up to half your Move score in meters) is a free action in Very Easy, Easy, and Moderate terrains. (This is drawn from pages 101 to 103 of R&E)... |
| garhkal wrote: | | What he said. Anything more than a half move (so for a human that's 5 meters or less), is an actual move action.. So you COULD say, one gets a free Half move, as part OF dodging. |
Correct. Up to Moderate terrain, the half-move distance is the threshold for MAPping. Dodging or not, if you move over half your move stat, then the movement counts as a separate action and a MAP applies for it.
| MrNexx wrote: | | Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge? |
Dodging applies to all attacks of that type for the rest of the round. The movement covered by dodging occurs at a certain point, so part of the round you would not be behind the cover and part of it you would. So whether you get the benefit of the cover or not depends on when each shot comes during the round. It wouldn't make sense to get the benefit of cover before you are behind the cover.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Tangential question: as Terrain Difficulty increases, should it provide Cover modifiers? |
I think it could apply in some terrains, yes.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge? |
Till you get behind it, no.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, RAW has some good references to inform a GM's decision on how to handle it. I think that if we are going to use logic such as, "a fast moving target is harder to hit than a slow moving one," it is counter productive to MAP a dodge roll for moving quickly.
If someone wants to use this house rule and impose an additional MAP for moving faster than 5m, they can just make it -3D to blaster instead (or -4D, if you want to apply it in the strictest sense of how MAPs normally work).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge? |
Till you get behind it, no. |
That brings up an interesting question, though. At what point in the round does the character reach said Cover? If the Character has a Move of 10, and is moving at Full Speed toward Cover that is only 5 meters away, they'll be behind the Cover when the round is only 25% done.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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It depends on how you run initiative. Some folks allow higher initiative to declare last and go first. If so, then moving from cover is ONLY valuable against opponents whose initiative is lower (since in this playstyle, the higher initiative can just say, "as soon as he breaks cover, I shoot him.")
The way I would handle it would be to impose a penalty on attack rolls (or bonus to dodge) based on the distance between covered locations. This modifier represents the increased difficulty of trying to shoot a fast moving target during a very brief window of opportunity.
Once cover is reached, its impossible to hit the target, which means that moving from cover to cover makes you much harder to hit than just moving out in the open.
What it ultimately boils down to is that the situation given above should result in a concealment and/or speed modifier on the attack or dodge roll.
A successful hit means that the target was hit during the movement. A failure means that the shot either missed the moving target or impacted the cover.
If we're dealing with concealment instead of cover, then I would either impose a smaller penalty or (if the attacker has a high enough tactics skill) no penalty at all.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Depends on if you want to count moving as an action that imposes MAPs, I guess.
But, I look at dodge being dependent upon the ability to move OR using a combination of speed and obstructions to deny an opponent a clear or easy shot. In other words, a character who isn't moving, isn't dodging.
Another way to say it would be that I view dodging as "built into" movement. |
I agree. To the point that in my homebrew RPG, involving modern combat, the 'dodge' skill is actually called 'Tactical Movement'.
The idea being that the more tactical-minded you are while moving, the less chance you have of getting shot;
Whether its a slow, low leopard-crawl, or the 'up-he-sees-me-down' bounding of an assault through mixed terrain, or the smooth advance in a staggered stack down a building corridor, with head and weapon on a swivel. |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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A bit of an aside, RE: Movement... I appreciate that the normal movement rules only take into account the terrain, not any firefight going on. Starship terrain difficulties throwing "dogfighting" in at Difficult makes the whole system a lot harder to manage, IMO.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge? |
Till you get behind it, no. |
That brings up an interesting question, though. At what point in the round does the character reach said Cover? If the Character has a Move of 10, and is moving at Full Speed toward Cover that is only 5 meters away, they'll be behind the Cover when the round is only 25% done. |
For me, that point comes, when they finish their move action.
So if at the start of the round, robby mc rebel, starts off, 8 meters away, from a brick wall, while steve and Susan mc stormtrooper both are 40 meters away, pointing their weapons. IF Robby wins initiative, and can do a full move action to the wall, he will gain cover, for when Steve and Susan shoot. HOWEVER if they shoot before hand, then Robby has no cover.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Related to this, though: Let's say I'm Dodging towards cover. The cover will provide me a +2d defense (i.e. +2D to difficulties to hit me) when I am behind it. Does it provide me any advantage during the dodge? |
Till you get behind it, no. |
That brings up an interesting question, though. At what point in the round does the character reach said Cover? If the Character has a Move of 10, and is moving at Full Speed toward Cover that is only 5 meters away, they'll be behind the Cover when the round is only 25% done. |
For me, that point comes, when they finish their move action.
So if at the start of the round, robby mc rebel, starts off, 8 meters away, from a brick wall, while steve and Susan mc stormtrooper both are 40 meters away, pointing their weapons. IF Robby wins initiative, and can do a full move action to the wall, he will gain cover, for when Steve and Susan shoot. HOWEVER if they shoot before hand, then Robby has no cover. |
It still leaves the main question unanswered, I think. It Robby started the round in cover, then the storm troopers must "waste" their turn waiting for him to break cover. Since their turn is over when Robby's turn begins, they still don't get to shoot him, since he was in cover for their whole turn, and reached cover before their next turn.
If you use a system that allows them to interrupt Robby's movement with a readied action, then, you're left with the question: does the fact that the target is only exposed for a brif moment have any effect on their shot difficulty? Or would you treat it the same as if the character were standing out in the open and tried to "dodge" without actually using any "movement."
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That brings up an interesting question, though. At what point in the round does the character reach said Cover? If the Character has a Move of 10, and is moving at Full Speed toward Cover that is only 5 meters away, they'll be behind the Cover when the round is only 25% done. |
That's logical, but for simplicity's sake, that's not how RAW works. The full distance of a movement action occurs in the space of time of a single character's turn of a round that the action was declared (since actions are not declared until it is time to roll them). Technically that applies for vehicles too. I think that is stupid so I don't do that.
How I choose to instead answer that question is, movement can take place over the course of a round and other things can happen during the movement. Based on the speed declared, when the movement is started in a round, and the total number of actions declared by any characters, I determine at what point in the intended journey a character/vehicle is when something else happens. You roll when you start the journey but it may not be done before other stuff happens in the round that may effect it. And this does mean that you may have to declare a higher speed movement (and thus take on a higher difficulty to get somewhere, such as behind cover, sooner in the round). I don't feel it is really that difficult.
I've advocated for this here before but no one else seemed that interested, so it is nice to know someone else out there thinks along the same lines.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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^^^
I think a simple way to narrate this is consistent with all other ranged reaction skills: your skill check for reactions is also the skill used to move the thing you're piloting/riding.
That seems to cover it for me. Unless I'm missing something in Whill's intent.
Dodging is walking/running/tumbling/tucking-and-rolling, or whatever.
So, any attacks made against Robby rebel oppose his dodge (movement) roll, and appropriate situational modifiers are applied based on the situation at that moment in time represented by the initiative count when the roll is made.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
It still leaves the main question unanswered, I think. It Robby started the round in cover, then the storm troopers must "waste" their turn waiting for him to break cover. Since their turn is over when Robby's turn begins, they still don't get to shoot him, since he was in cover for their whole turn, and reached cover before their next turn.
If you use a system that allows them to interrupt Robby's movement with a readied action, then, you're left with the question: does the fact that the target is only exposed for a brif moment have any effect on their shot difficulty? Or would you treat it the same as if the character were standing out in the open and tried to "dodge" without actually using any "movement." |
Well, if they wish to hold action TILL he moves, that's on them (goes both way). BUT if so, and they 'interrupt' and shoot while he moves from ONE cover spot to another, i think it would allow them to shoot him easier, than if he stayed UNDER the cover where he was at...
However, i DON'T think it should be as if he was standing IN the open..
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