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Young Jedi Template
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
According to RAW, there is another way for non-Force characters to earn a DSP. See R&E p.86. Both Force-sensitive and not characters may "Call Upon The Dark Side" which requires a Perception roll to accomplish. If successful, then the character is granted a FP for the action and earns a DSP for using the Dark Side.

I'd say that actually bolsters my case; the only two ways for a non-FS PC to earn a DSP under the RAW requires them to not merely commit an evil act, but to use the Force deliberately in the commission of said evil act. That doesn't sound like "mundane" evil acts to me. In your example of the Wookiee, I'd say that (again, under the RAW) simply shoving his way past (or through) her to get to the window would've absolutely been a morally evil act, but for it to be truly DSP-worthy would've required him actually spending a FP (or calling on the Dark Side) in order to make absolutely sure he shoved her aside, likely killing her in the process.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clearly differentiate between what is RAW and what is my game. I was talking about both as they were relevant to the discussion. The Wookiee story wasn't giving an example of RAW. What is your case?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I remember one time where a non-Force Wookiee mercenary was escaping enemies through an apartment building and broke into an apartment to find a frail old woman standing in the way between him and the external window he wanted to bust out of. The player first said he would just plow through her. I told him she had 1D Strength and that would probably kill her or seriously injure her, earning him a DSP. He then reconsidered, stating he instead walked over to her frig unit, got out her 2-liter jug of milk and chugged the whole thing, then went around her and busted out the window. He did not get a DSP for breaking two large holes in her apartment and stealing her milk. The player later completely agreed with my call, saying killing the innocent old lady would have been pure evil.


He could have say ROARED at her, to get her to move, or tried to simply pick her up, to move her..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
According to RAW, there is another way for non-Force characters to earn a DSP. See R&E p.86. Both Force-sensitive and not characters may "Call Upon The Dark Side" which requires a Perception roll to accomplish. If successful, then the character is granted a FP for the action and earns a DSP for using the Dark Side.

I'd say that actually bolsters my case; the only two ways for a non-FS PC to earn a DSP under the RAW requires them to not merely commit an evil act, but to use the Force deliberately in the commission of said evil act. That doesn't sound like "mundane" evil acts to me. In your example of the Wookiee, I'd say that (again, under the RAW) simply shoving his way past (or through) her to get to the window would've absolutely been a morally evil act, but for it to be truly DSP-worthy would've required him actually spending a FP (or calling on the Dark Side) in order to make absolutely sure he shoved her aside, likely killing her in the process.


True by the RAW moff tarkin should only have had those 2 DSP's he is wrote with, in the ANH sourcebook, after spending a FP to committ evil. BUT i have never understood WHAT that would have been.
I often feel he got them for ORDERING Alderann's destruction.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
He could have say ROARED at her, to get her to move, or tried to simply pick her up, to move her.

Sure, but she could have fainted and broke a hip too. I liked his alternative choice because it was funny. In the middle of an action/chase scene, he for a second seemed like he was going to plow through her, and he instead stopped to pour some milk and messily drink it, then make a second hole in her apartment and get away.

He was racing to get to his ship before the enemies chasing him, so he wouldn't have holed up in the building to hide and his enemies weren't going through the building (so the old lady was not in danger from the the evil people that wouldn't have had a second thought about killing her if she was in the way). He was just looking for a short cut through a building and did get enough ahead of them after almost dying before he went into the building.

The campaign was a merc campaign where the PCs were at first their own bounty hunter guild but became more general mercs that would do any kind of job they found interesting for the money. The PCs were only heroic if the job paid well, and they did do a lot of selfish things correctly in character. The morality bar was already set low for this campaign, but killing the innocent old lady would have just been crossing the line. The player saw my point and completely agreed with me.

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
According to RAW, there is another way for non-Force characters to earn a DSP. See R&E p.86. Both Force-sensitive and not characters may "Call Upon The Dark Side" which requires a Perception roll to accomplish. If successful, then the character is granted a FP for the action and earns a DSP for using the Dark Side.

I'd say that actually bolsters my case; the only two ways for a non-FS PC to earn a DSP under the RAW requires them to not merely commit an evil act, but to use the Force deliberately in the commission of said evil act.

True by the RAW moff tarkin should only have had those 2 DSP's he is wrote with, in the ANH sourcebook, after spending a FP to committ evil. BUT i have never understood WHAT that would have been.
I often feel he got them for ORDERING Alderann's destruction.

As I pointed out above, spending an existing FP on evil is one of two ways for non-Force characters to get a DSP in RAW. The other is calling upon the Dark Side to get an FP, whether the action is evil or not (it is just easier to do if it is for evil).

The Tarkin example supports the case for the way I do it, which is to also give DSPs for extremely evil acts. Tarkin was the supreme commander of the Death Star. Even Vader bowed to his wishes there. If the movie had been an RPG adventure, Tarkin would not have needed to use an FP to give the order to destroy Alderaan. But if he had been a PC in my game, I would have given him one for it without the Force being involved, because that one single act killed millions as a terrorist act to make a statement to the rest of the galaxy. You can't do much more evil in a single action than that!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
What is your case?

That the RAW for DSPs is entirely about evil acts using the Force, not evil acts in general. In fact, I question whether the DSP system is suitable for use as an "evil metric" without a major rewrite.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
True by the RAW moff tarkin should only have had those 2 DSP's he is wrote with, in the ANH sourcebook, after spending a FP to commit evil. BUT i have never understood WHAT that would have been.
I often feel he got them for ORDERING Alderaan's destruction.

Tarkin has a lot of history that was never shown on screen. Those DSPs could've easily come from something in his past. It wouldn't've taken spending a FP to say "you may fire when ready," regardless of what it unleashed.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
He could have say ROARED at her, to get her to move, or tried to simply pick her up, to move her.

Sure, but she could have fainted and broke a hip too. I liked his alternative choice because it was funny. In the middle of an action/chase scene, he for a second seemed like he was going to plow through her, and he instead stopped to pour some milk and messily drink it, then make a second hole in her apartment and get away.


I agree.. That certainly made for a comedic moment..

Quote:
The Tarkin example supports the case for the way I do it, which is to also give DSPs for extremely evil acts. Tarkin was the supreme commander of the Death Star. Even Vader bowed to his wishes there. If the movie had been an RPG adventure, Tarkin would not have needed to use an FP to give the order to destroy Alderaan. But if he had been a PC in my game, I would have given him one for it without the Force being involved, because that one single act killed millions as a terrorist act to make a statement to the rest of the galaxy. You can't do much more evil in a single action than that!


Hence why i have never agreed with that "NFS characters only gain a DSP for doing evil WHILE on a FP rule"...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Hence why i have never agreed with that "NFS characters only gain a DSP for doing evil WHILE on a FP rule"...

I would counter by saying that your disagreement is rooted in a misunderstanding of exactly what a DSP is supposed to represent in the RAW. WEG's DSP mechanic as written is not supposed to be a general measurement of good vs. evil, but rather a narrow focus on evil usage of the Force. This is not to say that it couldn't be used a general evil metric, but it would need a carefully considered rewrite of the DSP mechanic in order to do so.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That the RAW for DSPs is entirely about evil acts using the Force, not evil acts in general.

Yes. I only clarified that it wasn't only spending existing FPs since in RAW you can also call on the Dark Side to gain an FP, which earns you a DSP whether the action that the granted FP is used for is evil or not. Your general point that RAW only gives DSPs for things involving the Force is not in dispute. There is a difference between what RAW is (objective), and what the rules should be (subjective).

garhkal wrote:
Hence why i have never agreed with that "NFS characters only gain a DSP for doing evil WHILE on a FP rule"...

See, we do agree on some things. I would give DSPs to non-Force-sensitives too, but it would not be for borderline evil things. I rarely ever have any player (Force PC or not) go through with an action I say would earn them a DSP. I've only had one player ever who argued about it. He played a Force PC who wanted to murder an unarmed, defenseless, surrendered Imperial engineer. I said it would be an DSP whether he used the Force or not.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I would counter by saying that your disagreement is rooted in a misunderstanding of exactly what a DSP is supposed to represent in the RAW. WEG's DSP mechanic as written is not supposed to be a general measurement of good vs. evil, but rather a narrow focus on evil usage of the Force.

No, I don't think he misunderstands what DSPs are a metric of in RAW. My modification of RAW in sometimes giving DSPs without the Force being involved is certainly not born out of a misunderstanding of RAW. I understand but disagree with RAW's narrow focus on evil usage of the Force.

The main function of DSPs in the game is to determine when any character, Force-sensitive or not, crosses over to the Dark Side. RAW says DSPs are only earned by non-Force-sensitives when using the Force in one of two ways. I feel DSPs should be possible for any character without even using the Force for extremely evil acts because evil is still the Dark Side and the Force binds everything together. Whether the Force is used or not, the Force is still there. I view being "turned to the Dark Side" as a sort of possession where the character irrevocably goes full evil.

In my game, DSPs are in effect only relevant to PCs because crossing over the Dark Side is the threshold where the PC irrevocably becomes an NPC. For every occasion where a DSP is earned, if my 1D roll is less than the total DSPs the character now has, the PC becomes an NPC, as it was in 1e. NPCs are already NPCs. In my game, all characters who "turned to the Dark Side" are played by me.

I have no need to rework DSPs into a general evil metric, because each NPCs personality determines how evil I play them and their choices. For my game, I do not bother putting DSPs into NPC stats. It only matters if they have the status of having crossed over to the Dark Side or not, yes or no, and I only bother with that status for Force-sensitive characters. If yes, that means that at some point in the past they turned the Dark Side but how many DSPs they have don't really matter at that point.

CRMcNeill wrote:
This is not to say that it couldn't be used a general evil metric, but it would need a carefully considered rewrite of the DSP mechanic in order to do so.

If you want to create a house rules system where DSPs are a general metric of evil, please create a new thread and do that. I presume something like this would use the RAW rules (that I personally don't use) for Redemption from the Dark Side.
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