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Archive/Feedback for Advanced Starfighter Combat Project
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I loved Firefox! Watched it many times! I don't know if I would write up rules for dropping a mine in a dogfight. That seems to be a very desperate move, since if your pursuer is close enough, you might hit yourself with the blast.

That would depend greatly on range and the type of mine (only one of the four I wrote up is an area-effect). I can certainly see the launching ship potentially taking some damage if an area-effect mine detonates at Point Blank or Short Range. It creates an interesting choice; at longer ranges, you won't get caught in the blast radius, but the target has a better chance of avoiding the weapon.

Quote:
Honestly? I'd have them roll piloting and their gunnery, average the two scores together to set the difficulty for the pursuer. Pursuer fails, he hits the mine.

I do see how this might not be helpful for you... but, I felt I'd share nonetheless.

Actually, I already have a framework for Piloting affecting Gunnery in the Dogfighting rules. Rules for mines could be tied in to that, with the idea being that an attacker who has achieved the "On Your Tail" or "I Have You Now" results is vulnerable to a mine attack.

I hadn't considered it, but it greatly increases the utility of mines in starfighter combat. Thanks.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I loved Firefox! Watched it many times!
Whill wrote:
I saw Firefox on VHS in the late-80s (my high school job got into video rental and it was free for employees). I vaguely remember liking it.

I liked it myself. It's actually based on a novel series by Craig Thomas; Firefox was the first of four.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking a Space of 1-3/5/10 for Mines, with the stipulation of Rear Arc only, and can only be used in dogfighting if the ship is moving. Then for the area-effect mines (pretty much just the Cluster mine), have the mine do Base-2D Damage to the launching ship at Point Blank Range, and Base-4D Damage at Short Range.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:


Did you ever see the old Clint Eastwood movie Firefox with the prototype Soviet stealth fighter? Picture the aft-firing anti-missile bomb launchers.


I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure what you are referring to is the movie's depiction of an anti-missile countermeasures flare.

In the book, I believe it was explicitly a flare that was launched that destroyed the pursuing prototype. But it's been a long time;

though in the movie, he is trying to think in Russian...'Fire rearward missile' or something similar...and the graphic on the display is very missile-y so maybe I'm having a blended memory.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure what you are referring to is the movie's depiction of an anti-missile countermeasures flare.

In the book, I believe it was explicitly a flare that was launched that destroyed the pursuing prototype. But it's been a long time;

though in the movie, he is trying to think in Russian...'Fire rearward missile' or something similar...and the graphic on the display is very missile-y so maybe I'm having a blended memory.

In the film, it is specifically mentioned that it can fire explosives aft that could potentially knock out a pursuing missile, and it is this weapon that is ultimately used to take out the second Firefox.

The reason I brought it up was to clarify that I wasn't thinking in terms of the detection and engagement range of a stationary mine, but rather the "effective" range of a stationary mine being deployed from a moving craft in an attempt to use the mine against a pursuer in a dogfight.

EDIT: Another option would be adding a Thermal Detonator Launcher to the Countermeasures rule.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small update: I've tentatively committed to consolidating the contents of this topic into an article for the upcoming Adventurer's Journal #7: Racers, Hotshots & Fighter Jocks. There are a lot of ideas in here that are extrapolations and "what ifs" based on things that might exist, or actually do exist in the real world, but are never seen on screen. As such, I'll probably end up trimming the section down a bit, but the core will still be there.

Also, w/r/t what I wrote here, I've decided to fold all the additional ordnance into either the Missiles & Rockets post or the Gravity Bombs post, depending on what sort of launcher the weapon can be deployed from.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I never got around to addressing wingmen and groups of starfighters beyond what I posted here, but I did finally manage to bang out usable rules in a different topic, so I'll be porting these over here as needed.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have updated the Missiles & Rockets, Gravity Bombs & Mines and Heavy Ordnance posts to current standard, as well as streamlining them to more closely resemble WEG weapon stat blocks. When I come up with rules I'm satisfied with for Decoys, Probes, Buoys, etc, the stats will be added to sub-sections within these three posts. Later today, I'll be going through the various ship stats in my Index that make use of Starfighter-Scale ordnance and updating the links in the stats to these three posts as appropriate.

I can think of at least one of you who has linked their own stats to the (now outdated) files on my Google Doc, so this is your warning to update your stat posts, as that file will be going away as soon as I update the links.

Regarding Heavy Ordnance, I'm thinking of specifically adding Heavy Ordnance Hardpoints to a few of the stats that, IMO, are of sufficient size to take them. Apart from the K-Wing (which can carry nine of them), I'm thinking of putting one on the Y-Wing, the E-Wing (my strike version, at least), the TIE Bomber and TIE Scimitar. I will also be updating the pod weapons for my Z-15 Hunter Starbomber to reflect the new weapon stats, and (if I ever get around to doing my own version of it) the ARC-170, it will have one, as well. If you can think of any other craft that you think merit it, please let me know.

EDIT: Stat updates completed.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Came across something interesting on the website for Squadrons. Apparently, one of the available sensor countermeasures - called chaff - is basically deployed by dumping it into the thrust nozzles of the ship's engines. I can only imagine the resulting effect covers a much broader spectrum than just radar (heat, radioactivity, etc). Might have to rethink and simplify some of the countermeasures rules to represent that.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Macavity wrote:
I am wondering if this could be simplified by just taking the amount that one pilot bests another with their pilot maneuvering skill check to determine how much they close the gap or expand the gap between two ships?

Maybe for every +5 over an opposing pilot's roll you gain/reduce up to your ship's base cruising Space rating in range to the opponent?

That cuts out an additional roll and any table lookups, heavily values your own ship's base Cruising Space rating, but multiplies that by how much your own pilot's luck/skill beat another pilots luck/skill.

Coming back around to this, it occurs to me that the a truly simple method would be, once the opposed Piloting roll determines who has who in their sights, just roll the opposed 1E Speed Codes, then compare the result. If the threatened ship is higher, the difference is the Range in SUs / .1 kilometers; if the trailing ship is higher, then they get to pick the range, potentially as close at Point Blank.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'm thinking of taking this a step further and applying the Ordnance stats to my various capital ship re-writes. This would be primarily for ships equipped with Frigate-Scale missile and torpedo launchers, but I've also done stats for a few ships that include light anti-starfighter missiles, so I will likely modify those stats to launch the Light Weapons from the Missiles, Rockets & Torpedoes post. I'm currently working on a slight edit of the Heavy Ordnance page (which is also crucial to my planned re-write of the Z-15 Hunter), and then I'll start updating ship stats.

Any Destroyer-Scale Missiles and Torpedoes would remain as is.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to a post over on the FB Group, I'm putting priority on figuring out a rule for adding Speed Codes to the dogfighting rules. What I'm thinking is, rather than using the 1E Speed Codes just to represent Speed, I want to use them to represent Responsiveness (in the sense of, how quickly can a ship speed up or slow down).

To elaborate on what I have up to this point, here's the basics:
    1) The two opposed pilots roll their respective Piloting Skills. This provides a baseline for the ship's overall performance.

    2) Both pilots roll their ship's Maneuverability and add the total to the Piloting roll from Step 1, then compare the result to the following table:
      Roll wins by = Combat Result
      0-5 = Furball. Still maneuvering, no one has a clear shot.
      6-10 = I'm On Him. Still maneuvering, but winning pilot has gained an advantage. +1D to Piloting roll next round.
      11-15 = Deflection Shot. Winner gets a single snap-shot @ +10 Difficulty as his opponent crosses his bow.
      16-20 = On His Tail. Winner may shoot @ Normal Difficulty. Winning Pilot receives +1D bonus to the next round's Dogfighting roll.
      21+ = I Have You Now. Winner may shoot @ -5 Difficulty. Winning Pilot receives +2D bonus to the next round's Dogfighting roll.

    3) Once Positioning is established, both pilots roll their ship's Speed Code and add it to the Piloting roll from Step 1 to generate Range. Apply as follows:
      -Base Range is 10 SUs / 1km.

      -Pilot with highest Piloting+Speed Code roll may increase/decrease the range by up to the difference from the other Pilot's roll, with each point of difference equal to 1 SU / 100 meters.

      -However, the Pilot must declare in advance whether he intends to increase/decrease.
The upshot is that, even if a fighter can get outmaneuvered, they can still use their Speed to either extend the Range to make the attacker's shot more difficult, or they can attempt a sudden deceleration and try to force the attacker out in front.

From a tech standpoint, this also opens the door to retro thrusters and/or booster rockets that can give a sudden increase in speed or braking power.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Swapped out the 1E-friendly method for something more 2E appropriate.

EDIT 2: Changed the system so it uses a single Piloting roll to avoid MAPs and reduce the number of dice needed to resolve combat.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:52 pm; edited 4 times in total
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To facilitate this, as well as my earlier House Rule about allowing ships to add their Speed Dice to resist Tractor Beams, I think I'm going to go through my Index and add 1E Speed Codes to all the starfighters and capital ships. The scary part? I remember doing the math on the Storm IV; it has an effective Speed Code of 10D...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
To facilitate this, as well as my earlier House Rule about allowing ships to add their Speed Dice to resist Tractor Beams, I think I'm going to go through my Index and add 1E Speed Codes to all the starfighters and capital ships. The scary part? I remember doing the math on the Storm IV; it has an effective Speed Code of 10D...

Okay, so I've gone through and added 1E Speed Codes to all of the ships and flying vehicles in my Stat Index. As I did so, it occurred to me that the Dueling Blades variant I outlined above could be used as a basis for vehicle and capital ship combat, too, but that's beyond the purview of this topic.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, after skimming through this topic today, I'm strongly considering starting a new, better organized topic, and convert this one to an Archive / Feedback post. Honestly, the first four pages have pretty much been so eclipsed by improved versions that I expect it's pretty confusing to anyone coming at it cold.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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