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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:10 pm Post subject: Attacking as a Reaction |
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So, the RAW specifically delineates certain actions that characters can perform in response to an attack. It would make sense that the reverse is also true, in that a character can make ready to perform an attack, which only occurs when the enemy does something to trigger it.
Say, for example, your character is a sniper. A squad of stormtroopers is hunting him, and are moving cover to cover, trying to close the distance. The character can't shoot at them until they break cover, so his action of firing at the stormtroopers has to wait until they take their Move action.
So, how do you handle this procedurally? How do you even apply initiative in this situation? I mean, is there even a disadvantage to the sniper character if he loses initiative, since he was waiting for the stormtrooper to act first? My initial thought was, if the sniper wins initiative, but chooses to wait for the stormtroopers to break cover first, it counts as Preparation so he gets a +1D bonus to Blaster.
Thoughts?
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say that's not bad. It's what other games call a "prepared action", which works for me. I might not even give a bonus for that; they prepare in order to avoid the penalties.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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IF the sniper had initiative, he could 'hold action', but if he lost it.. He's out of luck.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IF the sniper had initiative, he could 'hold action', but if he lost it.. He's out of luck. |
That's... a bit extreme, isn't it? I can see not allowing a character any actions if they got Wounded by someone who beat them on Initiative, but not allowing any action at all in a combat round just because they lost the initiative seems pretty harsh.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | IF the sniper had initiative, he could 'hold action', but if he lost it.. He's out of luck. |
That's... a bit extreme, isn't it? I can see not allowing a character any actions if they got Wounded by someone who beat them on Initiative, but not allowing any action at all in a combat round just because they lost the initiative seems pretty harsh. |
This depends on how the game is played. Do players declare actions and then roll initiative, and then, are committed to the actions they took (therefore, rendering any conditional actions wasted if the conditions never materialize, or they occur before the character's initiative)?
You may recall, we addressed this very concept in "that other thread" where we discussed shooting at someone who is moving around behind/between cover or "protection."
In reality, the targets are either aware of the sniper or they are not. If not, no initiative is even required, as combat does not start until after the sniper takes a shot.
If they are aware, I might call for an initiative roll after actions are declared to give the targets a chance to play mind games with the sniper (waiting a while so that the sniper might think they got away by some unknown route or else just letting eye fatigue set in... even just muscle fatigue, depending on where the sniper is perched... it gets tiring and boring waiting for a target that isn't on a deadline). In this case, the targets broke cover while the sniper was blinking/squeezing his eyes shut to stimulate tear flow/combat eye fatigue... or he sneezed or coughed or whatever.
In any case, I'd want some kind of "luck" factor to account for lucky timing in favor of one side or the other.
Of course, even if he lost initiative, he could just try pulling the trigger anyway expecting to miss but... maybe the shot penetrates the recently acquired protection and hits the target after all.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Do players declare actions and then roll initiative, and then, are committed to the actions they took (therefore, rendering any conditional actions wasted if the conditions never materialize, or they occur before the character's initiative)? |
Well, per the RAW, Initiative comes before declaration, so in the scenario I described in the OP, the sniper character is going to be waiting for a target whether he wins initiative or not.
| Quote: | | In reality, the targets are either aware of the sniper or they are not. If not, no initiative is even required, as combat does not start until after the sniper takes a shot. |
For the sake of this scenario, lets assume the stormtroopers know the shooter is there, and one of their number has already been killed by the sniper. The question then becomes, is combat continuing uninterrupted from that point, or does a new combat sequence (with a new initiative roll) begin at the moment the stormtroopers break cover and advance?
I'm personally inclined toward a system where Initiative changes hands as combat progress, perhaps tied to a Tactics roll, but I digress.
| Quote: | | If they are aware, I might call for an initiative roll after actions are declared to give the targets a chance to play mind games with the sniper (waiting a while so that the sniper might think they got away by some unknown route or else just letting eye fatigue set in... even just muscle fatigue, depending on where the sniper is perched... it gets tiring and boring waiting for a target that isn't on a deadline). In this case, the targets broke cover while the sniper was blinking/squeezing his eyes shut to stimulate tear flow/combat eye fatigue... or he sneezed or coughed or whatever. |
I can see this being a factor in real world, but in a cinematic one like this, I don't really see either side hunkering down for hours on end. Even if only because it's boring and uncinematic.
| Quote: | | In any case, I'd want some kind of "luck" factor to account for lucky timing in favor of one side or the other. |
That's what we have dice for.
| Quote: | | Of course, even if he lost initiative, he could just try pulling the trigger anyway expecting to miss but... maybe the shot penetrates the recently acquired protection and hits the target after all. |
Depends what it is, I guess.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:19 am Post subject: |
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This is essentially exactly what I was trying to address a few weeks ago.
I think this new question around initiative gives it another angle, but gets at the same problem (not that its a "problem" but rather an issue that the rules are not granular enough to address for those interested).
Anyway, a dodge bonus provided by cover makes most sense to me.
You can reference D&D where a character can ready an action which can be performed at any point later in the round, even interrupting another character's turn, if the conditions for the action are met ("I fire my bow at the first orc to knock an arrow").
Of course, you have to win initiative OR delay into the next round and become the higest initiative by effectively sacrificing a turn to act at the top of next round (at which point, you can declare, "I fire my bow at the first orc to knock an arrow").
Therein may lie something useful for what you want to do.
As to the cinematic thing, if you want to make it a tactics based thing, knowing the weaknesses of a sniper's methodology and exploiting them is appropriate, I would think. It doesn't take hours, but, in many cases, just minutes to test a shooter's patience. Staying in the scope for more than a minute or two can get tricky, especially if the shooting position is not perfectly stable.
It may conflict with the feel you want, but I could see using the sniper's willpower or stamina to avoid succumbing to fatigue, bordem or even just doubt (thiniking that they escaped or retreated under cover, etc).
Other than that, what do you think of when you think of a "cinematic sniper"? Most of what I can think of from films involves a lot of hurry up and wait.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | IF the sniper had initiative, he could 'hold action', but if he lost it.. He's out of luck. |
That's... a bit extreme, isn't it? I can see not allowing a character any actions if they got Wounded by someone who beat them on Initiative, but not allowing any action at all in a combat round just because they lost the initiative seems pretty harsh. |
You misunderstood me C/ IF he lost initiative he STILL gets to act, in his normal initiative order. HE just couldn't React to /interrupt". Where as if he HAD the initiative and HELD IT, he could.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IF he lost initiative he STILL gets to act, in his normal initiative order. HE just couldn't React to /interrupt". Where as if he HAD the initiative and HELD IT, he could. |
So, you're saying that a Move action of 10-20 meters would be complete before a shooter would have time to take a shot? IIRC, Move actions are supposed to take the entire round. I could see a bonus or penalty being applied if the Move were completed in a fraction of a round (say, a character with a Move of 10, moving at High Speed, wants to cross a gap of 5 meters, which is 1/4 the maximum distance the character could travel, so via the X2 = +1D method, the character would get a +2D bonus to avoid being hit), but having the entire Move take place before a sniper can pull a trigger just doesn't make sense.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Anyway, a dodge bonus provided by cover makes most sense to me. |
I think we're going off-topic. My point is not predicated on partial Cover, but rather a character who goes from Full Cover to No Cover, which in turn triggers an action from another character who is waiting for the first character to expose himself. Getting into how much Cover the moving character has available during the Move is a separate issue.
| Quote: | | Other than that, what do you think of when you think of a "cinematic sniper"? Most of what I can think of from films involves a lot of hurry up and wait. |
I think we're getting hung up on terminology, so let's throw out my use of "sniper" and replace it with a regular character, with a blaster rifle, who is peering out from behind a piece of Cover (75%) waiting for the enemy to show themselves.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | IF he lost initiative he STILL gets to act, in his normal initiative order. HE just couldn't React to /interrupt". Where as if he HAD the initiative and HELD IT, he could. |
So, you're saying that a Move action of 10-20 meters would be complete before a shooter would have time to take a shot? |
BTB< that is how it is as per the RAW...
| Quote: | | I could see a bonus or penalty being applied if the Move were completed in a fraction of a round (say, a character with a Move of 10, moving at High Speed, wants to cross a gap of 5 meters, which is 1/4 the maximum distance the character could travel, so via the X2 = +1D method, the character would get a +2D bonus to avoid being hit), but having the entire Move take place before a sniper can pull a trigger just doesn't make sense |
For a space pulp/high fantasy game, it makes plenty of sense..
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Anyway, a dodge bonus provided by cover makes most sense to me. |
I think we're going off-topic. My point is not predicated on partial Cover, but rather a character who goes from Full Cover to No Cover, which in turn triggers an action from another character who is waiting for the first character to expose himself. Getting into how much Cover the moving character has available during the Move is a separate issue.
| Quote: | | Other than that, what do you think of when you think of a "cinematic sniper"? Most of what I can think of from films involves a lot of hurry up and wait. |
I think we're getting hung up on terminology, so let's throw out my use of "sniper" and replace it with a regular character, with a blaster rifle, who is peering out from behind a piece of Cover (75%) waiting for the enemy to show themselves. |
I got nuthin.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | BTB< that is how it is as per the RAW... |
| Quote: | | For a space pulp/high fantasy game, it makes plenty of sense.. |
Wait, so... you're okay with a rule in the RAW that allows a character to Move 20 meters in less time than it takes for a shooter to pull a trigger?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with garhkal on this. If the shooter does not know exactly when that target will become available, it would come down to luck whether he could hit within the time it takes to cover 20m.
The shooter does not know what range the target will be at. If he breaks cover 20m farther back than his cover (for example), the shooter would have to lift his point of aim and compensate for a moving target at the same time. Not easy... a shot most shooters would not expect to make beyond a certain distance (similar problem if too close, as well, depending on how much magnification the scope has if using one).
It certainly can be done, though. Its just not as simple as "the time it takes to pull the trigger."
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | It certainly can be done, though. Its just not as simple as "the time it takes to pull the trigger." |
But wouldn't that just make it more difficult, not impossible? Your scenario sounds like including a Dodge roll to make the shot harder, not completing the move before the shooter can get a shot off.
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