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Attacking as a Reaction
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.

When I think about taking a shot like this, its the kind of shot I would only take if I had no other considerations (like, if I didn't care about revealing my position or even presence).

In other words, if I had nothing to lose and was in a "why the heck not" scenario, I'd take the shot. Otherwise, I'd probably wait for a better one (or try to create a better one).

I could see interpreting a shot not taken as a "miss" on the dice, depending on whether, for example, the GM will reveal the difficulty prior to the player deciding whether to attempt the action (in some cases, one can look at a thing and know whether it falls wirthin their capability... in other cases, not).

Anyway, if I were the shooter, and they happened to break cover right into my crosshairs, then, sure, why not. Otherwise, I'd most likely pass (if I was trying to remain hidden, for example), rather than take a low percentage shot because its a tough shot to make, even when prepared for it.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
BTB< that is how it is as per the RAW...
Quote:
For a space pulp/high fantasy game, it makes plenty of sense..

Wait, so... you're okay with a rule in the RAW that allows a character to Move 20 meters in less time than it takes for a shooter to pull a trigger?


Well, being someone could run 20 meters in under 4 seconds, YES.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, being someone could run 20 meters in under 4 seconds, YES.

That's 80% of a 5-second combat round. Even a semi-auto could get off 4 rounds in 4 seconds. Even if he misses, a shooter isn't going to be caught that off guard.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: Attacking as a Reaction Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Attacking as a Reaction

My knee-jerk to this was d20's Attack of Opportunity, and I hate it. But if I am recalling my D&D correctly, that is based on if an enemy moves by your square a certain way during a round. That is not really what you are going for here.

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IF he lost initiative he STILL gets to act, in his normal initiative order. HE just couldn't React to /interrupt". Where as if he HAD the initiative and HELD IT, he could.

So, you're saying that a Move action of 10-20 meters would be complete before a shooter would have time to take a shot? IIRC, Move actions are supposed to take the entire round.

You are not recalling RAW correctly. In RAW, move actions take place completely within the space of the character's/pilot's turn of a round where they roll for the action. That is silly but less complex.

You may be remembering my house ruled solution to that, which is having declared movement take place over the course of the round, which requires the GM (and players) to put thought into how much of the total intended movement has occurred (and thus approximate character/vehicle position) at any given point during the actions of the round occurring after the movement has started.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Move take place before a sniper can pull a trigger just doesn't make sense.

Agreed, but I do not feel actions as reactions is the answer...

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, the RAW specifically delineates certain actions that characters can perform in response to an attack. It would make sense that the reverse is also true, in that a character can make ready to perform an attack, which only occurs when the enemy does something to trigger it.

Say, for example, your character is a sniper. A squad of stormtroopers is hunting him, and are moving cover to cover, trying to close the distance. The character can't shoot at them until they break cover, so his action of firing at the stormtroopers has to wait until they take their Move action.

So, how do you handle this procedurally? How do you even apply initiative in this situation? I mean, is there even a disadvantage to the sniper character if he loses initiative, since he was waiting for the stormtrooper to act first? My initial thought was, if the sniper wins initiative, but chooses to wait for the stormtroopers to break cover first, it counts as Preparation so he gets a +1D bonus to Blaster.

Thoughts?

Preparation is supposed to be for taking double the normal time to perform an action, so for a single action in a round it would be for preparing the round before. The character should not get the bonus just for delaying the action to be later in the round. There are couple possible RAW solutions available.

The first simple solution is with initiative. If the sniper wins initiative, he can still choose to go second, which may be smart if he needs the target to move out of cover first. If the target wins initiative, they may choose to go first.

Another simple solution is with MAPs. At the beginning of the round you only have to declare how many actions you are taking, and you do not declare what exactly you are doing for each action until that action comes. The sniper can declare more than one action. If the target is still behind cover during sniper's first action, then the sniper takes the shot during a subsequent declared action in the round after the target moves out from cover. There should be no penalty other than MAP for a character forfeiting an action if they decide not to do anything.

If it is the situation where the movement is enough to move from cover to cover in the space of a single action, then you may run into the problem with RAW mentioned above. The simple solution is to then adopt my movement rule which spreads the movement out over the course of the round, which then makes it a lot more likely (with initiative and multiple actions) for the sniper to have a shot while the target is in between covers.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another system which may provide some inspiration:

Warhammer 40K, 2nd edition.

A squad could forgo its own turn in the shooting phase in order to fire during the opponent's movement phase. This was called "overwatch."

A squad on overwatch could do nothing other than move into position. Then, the rest of the turn is forfeit.

Once the opponent's turn starts, the squad on overwatch may interrupt the opponent's movement phase to fire its weapons. However, all cover bonuses that existed prior to the movement applied.

In any case, if realism is what we're after, and we don't know exactly where a target will appear (and I mean, EXACTLY where), even a relatively slow moving target can cover several meters before the crosshairs are lined up.

I've been in this situation a few times, and its somewhat surprising just how far someone can get even when the shooter has a relatively good sense of where they will emerge from.

The basic tactic when moving under fire is to only expose yourself long enough to say, "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down." Also, even when a target's movement and speed are predictable with 100% accuracy (like on a moving target set up at a training range), hitting it can be tricky depending on the variables.

Sometimes its harder the closer you get. Other times it's harder because the long distance reduces the margin for error
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Another system which may provide some inspiration:

Warhammer 40K, 2nd edition.

A squad could forgo its own turn in the shooting phase in order to fire during the opponent's movement phase. This was called "overwatch."

I get a lot of good ideas from early-edition WH40K, and this may have been part of my inspiration. I distinctly recall the phrase "overwatch" as I was writing the OP, but I couldn't remember the source.

Something that occurred to me while groking Whill's post above would be a D6 variant on this, where one side basically "forfeits" on Initiative, and chooses to take no actions at all unless the other side does something to trigger it.

Quote:
The basic tactic when moving under fire is to only expose yourself long enough to say, "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down." Also, even when a target's movement and speed are predictable with 100% accuracy (like on a moving target set up at a training range), hitting it can be tricky depending on the variables.

Sometimes its harder the closer you get. Other times it's harder because the long distance reduces the margin for error

I'm mostly thinking in terms of in-door or urban combat where the attackers pretty much have to come from "around that corner". I can see your point w/r/t combat out in the open in the desert or some other location with really long sight lines, but we really don't see a whole lot of that in the films.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Attacking as a Reaction Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, Move actions are supposed to take the entire round.

You are not recalling RAW correctly. In RAW, move actions take place completely within the space of the character's/pilot's turn of a round where they roll for the action. That is silly but less complex.

Point of order: I did recall the RAW correctly, and thought it was silly, which was why I posted this in House Rules. I didn't post an actual House Rule because I don't really have one at the moment, and was looking for solutions.

Quote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Move take place before a sniper can pull a trigger just doesn't make sense.

Agreed, but I do not feel actions as reactions is the answer...

That was just me trying to phrase it in SWD6 terminology. It could just as easily be called "delayed action" or "deferred action."

Quote:
You may be remembering my house ruled solution to that, which is having declared movement take place over the course of the round, which requires the GM (and players) to put thought into how much of the total intended movement has occurred (and thus approximate character/vehicle position) at any given point during the actions of the round occurring after the movement has started.
Quote:
If it is the situation where the movement is enough to move from cover to cover in the space of a single action, then you may run into the problem with RAW mentioned above. The simple solution is to then adopt my movement rule which spreads the movement out over the course of the round, which then makes it a lot more likely (with initiative and multiple actions) for the sniper to have a shot while the target is in between covers.

I recall the gist of the discussion, but not where it happened. In particular, I remember suggesting a Cover-like modifier based on how much of a round the character's Move would consume. If, for instance, a character moving at All-Out could cover 40 meters in a round, but only needed to go 10 from one piece of cover to another, they'd get a +4D modifier on account of only using 25% of their available Move (effectively, being behind Cover for 75% of the round).

Quote:
Preparation is supposed to be for taking double the normal time to perform an action, so for a single action in a round it would be for preparing the round before. The character should not get the bonus just for delaying the action to be later in the round. There are couple possible RAW solutions available.

It's a little weird; per the skill description, the Time To Use for Blaster is One Round, which would lead one to believe that it covers all the Blaster shots fired in a round. But I've only ever seen it played as Blaster taking one Action, not a full Round. If it's the latter, then the action of Preparation would simply be the character winning Initiative and choosing to spend that action Preparing to shoot once the attacker makes their Move action and leaves Cover.

Quote:
The first simple solution is with initiative. If the sniper wins initiative, he can still choose to go second, which may be smart if he needs the target to move out of cover first. If the target wins initiative, they may choose to go first.

Another simple solution is with MAPs. At the beginning of the round you only have to declare how many actions you are taking, and you do not declare what exactly you are doing for each action until that action comes. The sniper can declare more than one action. If the target is still behind cover during sniper's first action, then the sniper takes the shot during a subsequent declared action in the round after the target moves out from cover. There should be no penalty other than MAP for a character forfeiting an action if they decide not to do anything.

I just don't see a MAP being applicable to a character who didn't do anything except wait for his target to show himself, though.

Much to grok here...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'm mostly thinking in terms of in-door or urban combat where the attackers pretty much have to come from "around that corner". I can see your point w/r/t combat out in the open in the desert or some other location with really long sight lines, but we really don't see a whole lot of that in the films.


The following should only matter if you want more realism. Otherwise, take with a grain of salt.

Like I said above, this is difficult to pull off, even if you know that they are coming from around a specific corner. In order to pull this off you need a lot of luck or a whole lot of skill.

Things that affect the difficulty that the shooter cannot control even if he knows that they will come from around "that corner:"

1) When will the target emerge? (Are they even still there or did they find an alternate route... the shooter will begin to doubt and question).

2) How far back from the corner will they be? (Affects the elevation of the point of aim, especially if the shooter is on a different plane than the target).

3) How fast is the target moving? (This, coupled with distance must be accounted for when leading the target.... the farther the target, the more of a lead you need... the closer the target, the more you have to move to line up the shot. Consider also that the smart thing to do would be to get a running start such that, as the target, you're all ready up to full speed at the moment you emerge from cover, so you get even more distance in the time alloted [this of course would fall under some kind of tactics-based bonus representing a reduction in exposure time, rather than an increse of distance covered]).

As I said, I have been the shooter in this scenario before, and even knowing where to look/expect the target, its not as easy as just "pulling the trigger" especially if the target knows you have line of sight to his position.

Not impossible, but should come with a cost appropriate to the difficulty and the effect such a rule would have on gameplay.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Attacking as a Reaction Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, Move actions are supposed to take the entire round.

You are not recalling RAW correctly. In RAW, move actions take place completely within the space of the character's/pilot's turn of a round where they roll for the action. That is silly but less complex.

Point of order: I did recall the RAW correctly, and thought it was silly, which was why I posted this in House Rules.

Counterpoint of order? You literally said, "If I recall correctly, move actions are supposed to take the entire round." Per RAW, they do not take the entire round. When I said, "You are not recalling correctly," I was specifically referring to that single sentence of yours about how long move actions take in RAW. If you weren't recalling RAW, what is it you were you attempting to recall from and what about it makes it "supposed to"?

And I understood why you were posting the whole post and where you were posting it. We agree RAW is silly.

CRMcNeill wrote:
That was just me trying to phrase it in SWD6 terminology. It could just as easily be called "delayed action" or "deferred action."

I knew what you were going for. I was primarily disagreeing with the "attack as reaction" terminology. Deferred is better but delayed is probably best for what you are going for.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Preparation is supposed to be for taking double the normal time to perform an action, so for a single action in a round it would be for preparing the round before. The character should not get the bonus just for delaying the action to be later in the round.

It's a little weird; per the skill description, the Time To Use for Blaster is One Round, which would lead one to believe that it covers all the Blaster shots fired in a round. But I've only ever seen it played as Blaster taking one Action, not a full Round. If it's the latter, then the action of Preparation would simply be the character winning Initiative and choosing to spend that action Preparing to shoot once the attacker makes their Move action and leaves Cover.

On the rule section for Preparing (R&E p.81), it says the bonus can apply to "a task" in the singular. Blue Vader and D6 Space also have the same rule with the same terminology. No, it doesn't explicitly say it can only apply to a single action, but I couldn't consider multiple blaster shots to be a singular task. Also, adding 1D to the blaster skill for multiple actions would mean that with the MAP rule, every shot would be 1D higher than it would be without the preparation, which means that you are really getting +1D to each shot taken, thus multiplying the bonus. The rule only really makes sense if it provides a singular 1D bonus to a singular roll, whether the "task" is a single action in a round or a task that takes longer to complete, like repairing a droid.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
There are couple possible RAW solutions available.

The first simple solution is with initiative. If the sniper wins initiative, he can still choose to go second, which may be smart if he needs the target to move out of cover first. If the target wins initiative, they may choose to go first.

Another simple solution is with MAPs. At the beginning of the round you only have to declare how many actions you are taking, and you do not declare what exactly you are doing for each action until that action comes. The sniper can declare more than one action. If the target is still behind cover during sniper's first action, then the sniper takes the shot during a subsequent declared action in the round after the target moves out from cover. There should be no penalty other than MAP for a character forfeiting an action if they decide not to do anything.

I just don't see a MAP being applicable to a character who didn't do anything except wait for his target to show himself, though.

I just don't see getting a preparation bonus without spending an entire round to prepare for a single shot and also delaying the shot outside of your "window" of when it comes up in initiative order for that round.

Beyond the RAW options I mentioned, for a house rule maybe require the character to prepare (aiming the round before the shot) and also win initiative for the round of the shot, and the delayed action costs the preparation bonus, so the net result is the player rolls normally for this one shot?

It seems with action delay we are getting somewhat into concurrent action territory.
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