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Notice (Search, Expanded)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:14 pm    Post subject: Notice (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

So, based on my earlier post, I decided to compile the full thing into an expanded re-write of the Search skill. By the time I was done, the skill had gone far beyond the original scope of the Search skill, so I decided a name with a broader scope was appropriate.

Notice

(Perception)

Time Taken: One Round or longer
Specializations: Tracking, Investigation

This skill is used when the character is trying to see, hear, smell or generally detect things that might normally escape their attention. If the subject is being purposely obscured or concealed, the skill is rolled against the subject's Hide or Sneak skill (depending on the method being used). Otherwise, the skill is rolled against the appropriate Difficulty. This skill is also used to detect potential ambushes.

Here are some example Notice Difficulties, depending on the particular sense being utilized:
    Sight:
    Very Easy - Character knows object's exact location.
    Easy - Character knows the approximate location of a hidden object.
    Moderate - Character has only vague information, or has only a general idea regarding what he is looking for.
    Difficult - Character is conducting a general search, but doesn't know what he is looking for (for example, looking for clues at a crime scene). Looking for objects that are very small, like coins.
    Very Difficult - Character doesn't know what he is looking for, or is searching for a very obscure or extremely small object.
    Heroic - Object is almost microscopic in size.

    Sound:
    Very Easy - A normal conversation.
    Easy - Normal movement, such as a person walking, but not speaking.
    Moderate - Quiet movement (a blaster or knife being drawn, a door lock being picked).
    Difficult - A person breathing normally.
    Heroic - A human heartbeat.

    Scent:
    Very Easy - Strong or well-known odor
    Easy - Noticeable or familiar odor
    Difficult - Faint or non-specific odor
    Heroic - Odor is almost nonexistent or personally unknown to the character.
    Note: In an open environment, scent fades over time. The base difficulty of a scent increases by +D6 for every hour that has passed since the scent was left. Scents in a sealed environment, such as a closed room, degrade more slowly (+1 for every hour passed). On a successful roll, the character can estimate the age of the scent. Tracking by scent is beyond the capacity of normal human senses. Other species with scent-specific senses may have the ability to track someone by scent, but that will have to be decided on a case by case basis with your GM.
Modifiers:
    Distance: (Double for Sound & Scent)
    +0 - Close range (in the same room or immediate area)
    +10 - Moderately far away (Down the block or across the parking lot, within 100 meters)
    +20 - Very far away (Can barely be seen with normal human senses, several hundred meters away, up to a full kilometer
    +30 - Extreme distances (several kilometers)

    Interference:
    +0 - Minimal (Open field / quiet room / unused area with few scents)
    +5 - Noticeable (Walking in a light crowd / coffee shop, cafe or other moderately populated place)
    +10 - Dominant (Large crowd or a dimly lit room / crowded club, etc.)
    +20 - Overpowering (Rock concert mosh pit, in the middle of a blaster fight, trying to pick out a specific scent in a garbage dump, etc.)
This is intended as expansion of the Difficulty chart for the Search skill, which is primarily geared toward sight-based detection.[/list]
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Aug 09, 2023 10:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always CRM, well thought out and detailed from you sir.



A few Questions;

A) Would you use this in most places where a generic perception check may also occur?

B) Or in other terms, would you this as a passive (i.e. noticing an ambush, or item on the ceiling etc.) or only for actively trying to detect something?

C) I notice you have investigation as a specialization - does this mean it is rolled into it?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
As always, well thought out and detailed from you sir.

Thanks, and much appreciated, as always.

Quote:
A) Would you use this in most places where a generic perception check may also occur?

Correct, for the most part. Usually when a Perception check is called for, it's something related to Search, although I can see circumstances where the Perception roll would be standing in for other skills like Gambling or Discernment. In the end, it would be up to the GM as to which skill is the most appropriate, based on the circumstances.

Quote:
B) Or in other terms, would you this as a passive (i.e. noticing an ambush, or item on the ceiling etc.) or only for actively trying to detect something?

Both, although there's something to be said for a character being "on alert" and actively scanning for something as opposed to just noticing it in passing. That will require some thought, though.

I had an idea a while back for an Advanced Skill called Awareness that represented that added ability of a character to be always on the lookout, but ended up poaching the name to make this skill. I suppose something similar called Alertness might serve the role just as well

Quote:
C) I notice you have investigation as a specialization - does this mean it is rolled into it?

Under the write-up for Search, the only listed Specialization is Tracking. I wanted to come up with another specialization to represent the ability of a character to spot details in a crime scene or similar circumstances, while not calling it Investigation, but my thesaurus search didn't come up with a title that felt right, so I just went with that instead.

I vaguely remember Whill or someone talking about renaming Investigation, but I don't recall the specifics...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option that just occurred to me is to remove all mention of size from the Visual Difficulties chart and use Scale Modifiers instead...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Awareness (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, based on my earlier post, I decided to compile the full thing into an expanded re-write of the Search skill. By the time I was done, the skill had gone far beyond the original scope of the Search skill, so I decided a name with a broader scope was appropriate.

Awareness

(Perception)

Time Taken: One Round or longer
Specializations: Tracking, Investigation

This skill is used when the character is trying to see, hear, smell or generally detect things that might normally escape their attention. If the subject is being purposely obscured or concealed, the skill is rolled against the subject's Hide or Sneak skill (depending on the method being used). Otherwise, the skill is rolled against the appropriate Difficulty. This skill is also used to detect potential ambushes.

Here are some example Awareness Difficulties, depending on the particular sense being utilized:
    Sight:
    Very Easy - Character knows object's exact location.
    Easy - Character knows the approximate location of a hidden object.
    Moderate - Character has only vague information, or has only a general idea regarding what he is looking for.
    Difficult - Character is conducting a general search, but doesn't know what he is looking for (for example, looking for clues at a crime scene). Looking for objects that are very small, like coins.
    Very Difficult - Character doesn't know what he is looking for, or is searching for a very obscure or extremely small object.
    Heroic - Object is almost microscopic in size.

    Sound:
    Very Easy - A normal conversation.
    Easy - Normal movement, such as a person walking, but not speaking.
    Moderate - Quiet movement (a blaster or knife being drawn, a door lock being picked).
    Difficult - A person breathing normally.
    Heroic - A human heartbeat.

    Scent:
    Very Easy - Strong or well-known odor
    Easy - Noticeable or familiar odor
    Difficult - Faint or non-specific odor
    Heroic - Odor is almost nonexistent or personally unknown to the character.
    Note: In an open environment, scent fades over time. The base difficulty of a scent increases by +D6 for every hour that has passed since the scent was left. Scents in a sealed environment, such as a closed room, degrade more slowly (+1 for every hour passed). On a successful roll, the character can estimate the age of the scent. Tracking by scent is beyond the capacity of normal human senses. Other species with scent-specific senses may have the ability to track someone by scent, but that will have to be decided on a case by case basis with your GM.
Modifiers:
    Distance: (Double for Sound & Scent)
    +0 - Close range (in the same room or immediate area)
    +10 - Moderately far away (Down the block or across the parking lot, within 100 meters)
    +20 - Very far away (Can barely be seen with normal human senses, several hundred meters away, up to a full kilometer
    +30 - Extreme distances (several kilometers)

    Interference:
    +0 - Minimal (Open field / quiet room / unused area with few scents)
    +5 - Noticeable (Walking in a light crowd / coffee shop, cafe or other moderately populated place)
    +10 - Dominant (Large crowd or a dimly lit room / crowded club, etc.)
    +20 - Overpowering (Rock concert mosh pit, in the middle of a blaster fight, trying to pick out a specific scent in a garbage dump, etc.)
This is intended as expansion of the Difficulty chart for the Search skill, which is primarily geared toward sight-based detection.

I like the difficulty and modifier breakdowns. Nice.

CRMcNeill wrote:
packman wrote:
C) I notice you have investigation as a specialization - does this mean it is rolled into it?

Under the write-up for Search, the only listed Specialization is Tracking. I wanted to come up with another specialization to represent the ability of a character to spot details in a crime scene or similar circumstances, while not calling it Investigation, but my thesaurus search didn't come up with a title that felt right, so I just went with that instead.

I vaguely remember Whill or someone talking about renaming Investigation, but I don't recall the specifics...

I didn't rename investigation. I just moved it to Knowledge with the other primarily information gathering skills.

Since the investigation skill is more focused on information gathering and drawing conclusions, I can see why you'd think there should be a specialization of search that focused on noticing the clues. That's not unreasonable, and I don't think there really is a better name for the specialization.

Me personally, I'd allow the investigation skill to be used to notice clues when looking for clues in general, at one level higher difficulty than the Perception difficulty would be...

CRMcNeill wrote:
pakman wrote:
A) Would you use this in most places where a generic perception check may also occur?

Correct, for the most part. Usually when a Perception check is called for, it's something related to Search, although I can see circumstances where the Perception roll would be standing in for other skills like Gambling or Discernment. In the end, it would be up to the GM as to which skill is the most appropriate, based on the circumstances.
Quote:
B) Or in other terms, would you this as a passive (i.e. noticing an ambush, or item on the ceiling etc.) or only for actively trying to detect something?

Both, although there's something to be said for a character being "on alert" and actively scanning for something as opposed to just noticing it in passing. That will require some thought, though.

I had an idea a while back for an Advanced Skill called Awareness that represented that added ability of a character to be always on the lookout, but ended up poaching the name to make this skill. I suppose something similar called Alertness might serve the role just as well

Passive awareness was not included with the search skill until R&E. In 1e and Blue Vader, passive awareness was base Perception. That is one update I never went with (I don't think I even noticed the change for years.)

Searching (I like gerunds instead of verbs for skill names) is my active physical awareness skill, and discernment is my active social awareness skill. Base Perception is passive awareness. Active awareness checks require players to be looking for something specific, so they wouldn't be used for being on high alert in general or to just notice a clue they aren't specifically looking for. If active and passive physical awareness is rolled into a single skill, then I guess that distinction doesn't matter.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Awareness (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I like the difficulty and modifier breakdowns. Nice.

Thanks. I'm strongly considering separating out both size (particularly for sight) and familiarity with the sensory input as a separate modifier categories, but I haven't put any work in on that yet.

Quote:
I didn't rename investigation. I just moved it to Knowledge with the other primarily information gathering skills.

Ah, yes, that was it.

Quote:
Since the investigation skill is more focused on information gathering and drawing conclusions, I can see why you'd think there should be a specialization of search that focused on noticing the clues. That's not unreasonable, and I don't think there really is a better name for the specialization.

Me personally, I'd allow the investigation skill to be used to notice clues when looking for clues in general, at one level higher difficulty than the Perception difficulty would be...

Makes sense. I'm hesitant to put the difficulties that close together, but on the other hand, limiting the use of Investigation strictly to spotting clues at a crime scene (or something similar) without providing the overall advantages of Awareness in general seems a decent trade-off.

Quote:
Passive awareness was not included with the search skill until R&E. In 1e and Blue Vader, passive awareness was base Perception. That is one update I never went with (I don't think I even noticed the change for years.)

Searching (I like gerunds instead of verbs for skill names) is my active physical awareness skill, and discernment is my active social awareness skill. Base Perception is passive awareness. Active awareness checks require players to be looking for something specific, so they wouldn't be used for being on high alert in general or to just notice a clue they aren't specifically looking for. If active and passive physical awareness is rolled into a single skill, then I guess that distinction doesn't matter.

No, like I said, I like the idea of there being a split between passive and active; I just want there to be a way for characters to improve their passive mode, as well as represent the people who are constantly on alert, like secret agents or martial artists, whose "passive" never shuts off.

Maybe making it an Advanced Skill... (A) Alertness or something...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding active versus passive:

I've been thinking that "passive" detection of a thing (ambush, clues, etc.) has more to do with what a person knows about that thing than his "ability" to detect things that he isn't looking for.

Ambushes, for example, may be detected by a lucky glance in the right direction at the right moment (wild die explosion on a basic perception roll), or the enemy adjusting his posture and breaking a twig or whatever (wild die mishap on a sneak roll). But knowing how to set up an ambush, where and when one would be effective, etc, would allow a character to recognize (without actively searching/thinking about it) when he is approaching a "good" ambush site and then start filtering his information intake for signs of an enemy in waiting (which would be an opposed roll; and with the idea in the OP, a character who knows ambushes should probably get some kind of advantage).

Same with clues: knowing what information you need in order to solve a puzzle will allow you to filter out the stimuli/information that is not pertinent and set it in a lower priority in your information gathering process.

If we use Sherlock Holmes as an example, when meeting someone new, he probably has a routine that he goes through with regard to details he consumes in a particular order in the first two or three seconds to get a sense of who he is dealing with.

All that being said, it seems to me that knowing what you're doing (being familiar with the kind of things that you're dealing with, whether its sub-light engines, garden vegetables, high end fashion, ambush tactics, or high priced art), being able to "notice clues" on the fly would be more dependent on knowing the subject matter than just being amazingly perceptive.

That is to say, someone with a superfluous amount of "passive information gathering ability" but no specific knowledge set, might notice every single detail in his environment, but may have no idea which details are significant or relevant, and so would just ignore them, ultimately.

Just some food for thought.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Awareness (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

No, like I said, I like the idea of there being a split between passive and active; I just want there to be a way for characters to improve their passive mode, as well as represent the people who are constantly on alert, like secret agents or martial artists, whose "passive" never shuts off.

Maybe making it an Advanced Skill... (A) Alertness or something...


I like the idea. We have the sense skill for force sensitives, and (at least in my opinion) a force sensitive should always get a sense check to detect things they aren't looking for unless there is some good reason to deny it.

For me, the "passive" awareness is kind of a "way of life" more than a developed sensory thing. For example, my wife likes to put on loud music when cleaning the house. I hate the loud music because it interferes with my ability to hear what is going on in my environment. In my own house, it's not a big deal, but because of the "way of life" I've developed, I feel more "vulnerable" when one of my early warning senses is effectively taken away.

I think animals (especially prey animals) operate in a similar manner: when their senses are overloaded to the point that they cannot detect indicators of a predator, they get nervous and may flee an area, not because they think a predator is there, but because they can't rely on their ability to detect a predator that might be there.

In any case, I'd say passive awareness could certainly be a skill, and perception is definitely where it belongs. In case it matters, I'd suggest that the skill be typically based on the character's procedural approach to filtering information gathered by his senses when those senses are available to him.

A highly skilled character may have developed ways of leaning on "back up" senses to detect things when one or more of his primary senses is compromised (can't hear? Take a bit longer [or take a penalty] on your skill check and use sight and/or smell to try and maintain alertness, for example). Obviously, some things can only be detected by one sense, and so would fly completely under the radar if that particular sense was unavailable.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Awareness (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Since the investigation skill is more focused on information gathering and drawing conclusions, I can see why you'd think there should be a specialization of search that focused on noticing the clues. That's not unreasonable, and I don't think there really is a better name for the specialization.

Me personally, I'd allow the investigation skill to be used to notice clues when looking for clues in general, at one level higher difficulty than the Perception difficulty would be...

Makes sense. I'm hesitant to put the difficulties that close together, but on the other hand, limiting the use of Investigation strictly to spotting clues at a crime scene (or something similar) without providing the overall advantages of Awareness in general seems a decent trade-off.

The investigation skill is not for noticing clues in RAW. It is for gathering information and drawing conclusions. I was saying I would add noticing clues to it (but at a higher difficulty).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Awareness (Search, Expanded) Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
We have the sense skill for force sensitives, and (at least in my opinion) a force sensitive should always get a sense check to detect things they aren't looking for unless there is some good reason to deny it.

I agree, although I'm not sure how widely this should be applied. I've long advocated that Danger Sense should get an automatic application, but I'm somewhat more reserved when it comes to less urgent uses. One idea that immediately springs to mind is the GM using "Force Intuition" as a way to guide PCs toward crucially important things they may have missed. The problem becomes how to apply that without it turning into the SWD6 Railroad Corporation.

Quote:
For me, the "passive" awareness is kind of a "way of life" more than a developed sensory thing. For example, my wife likes to put on loud music when cleaning the house. I hate the loud music because it interferes with my ability to hear what is going on in my environment. In my own house, it's not a big deal, but because of the "way of life" I've developed, I feel more "vulnerable" when one of my early warning senses is effectively taken away.

I think animals (especially prey animals) operate in a similar manner: when their senses are overloaded to the point that they cannot detect indicators of a predator, they get nervous and may flee an area, not because they think a predator is there, but because they can't rely on their ability to detect a predator that might be there.

Makes sense. As far as stats go, I think it would need two parallel methods; one for animals and one for characters. For characters, most aren't going to come by this naturally, but can be taught it, which is best represented by an Advanced Skill. For animals, a Special Ability or Story Factor, representing something intrinsic to their nature, sounds like a better fit.

Quote:
In any case, I'd say passive awareness could certainly be a skill, and perception is definitely where it belongs. In case it matters, I'd suggest that the skill be typically based on the character's procedural approach to filtering information gathered by his senses when those senses are available to him.

A highly skilled character may have developed ways of leaning on "back up" senses to detect things when one or more of his primary senses is compromised (can't hear? Take a bit longer [or take a penalty] on your skill check and use sight and/or smell to try and maintain alertness, for example). Obviously, some things can only be detected by one sense, and so would fly completely under the radar if that particular sense was unavailable.

It sounds like you're describing a more aggregate approach to senses than the specific stuff I posted above. In the case of spotting an ambush, the character would likely be relying on a conglomeration of all their sensory inputs, so having one of the impaired would only partially reduce their alertness. The idea I had posted in the link in OP was that such reductions be treated as Cover modifiers, but I couldn't quite figure out how to represent that.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda keyed in on the "never switches off" character concept. For people just noticing stuff incidentally (without regard to the relevance of such details), a passive awareness skill could be a thing.

Search, by RAW, seems to cover this aready, and adding a passive version of the skill along with modifiers and guidelines (rather than an active/passive catch all), like you've proposed, works for me.

I don't see a problem with the OP.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strongly considering changing the name of this skill to Notice.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bumping this on account of a few thoughts:

1) Went ahead with the above proposed change from Awareness to Notice.

2) I had intended to use Awareness as the title for an Advanced Skill used to enhance passive detection, but ultimately couldn't figure out how to make it work. W/r/t the earlier discussion about passive vs active detection, it's ultimately simpler and easier to use Notice for active detection, and either Perception or 1/2 Notice for passive detection.

3) One concept that did occur to me is an Advanced Skill I've termed Palate. While the official definition is "sense of taste", my thinking is to have it extend to all the sense, recognizing specific flavors, scents, textures, etc, with the ability to verbally describe them. An example would be Silence of the Lambs, where Hannibal Lecter picks out the specifics of Clarise Starling's scent ("You use Evian skin cream, and sometimes you wear L'Air du Temps, but not today."). This is normally an indication of a character's sophistication, but also has practical uses for recognizing other scents (explosives, poisons, and other chemicals).
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Totally Not An ISB Agent
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
1) Went ahead with the above proposed change from Awareness to Notice.

Funny, in Cyberpunk 2020, the skill is called Awareness/Notice.

CRMcNeill wrote:

2) I had intended to use Awareness as the title for an Advanced Skill used to enhance passive detection, but ultimately couldn't figure out how to make it work. W/r/t the earlier discussion about passive vs active detection, it's ultimately simpler and easier to use Notice for active detection, and either Perception or 1/2 Notice for passive detection.

Also in Cyberpunk 2020, the Solo role had a special ability called Combat Sense. It gave a bonus to both Awareness and Initiative. You could make Combat Sense an Advanced Skill which gives its bonus to Notice, Initiative, and Passive Awareness (Perception) checks.

In fact, I may just do that in my own game.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally Not An ISB Agent wrote:
Funny, in Cyberpunk 2020, the skill is called Awareness/Notice.

Interesting. Something great minds something something.

Quote:
Also in Cyberpunk 2020, the Solo role had a special ability called Combat Sense. It gave a bonus to both Awareness and Initiative. You could make Combat Sense an Advanced Skill which gives its bonus to Notice, Initiative, and Passive Awareness (Perception) checks.

The only thing I don't like there is the sense that it applies only in combat. I'd definitely want to come up with a title that's a bit more expansive.
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