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The case for "grey jedi" being your regular jedi
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: The case for "grey jedi" being your regular jedi Reply with quote

yes they do exist and they are numerous I would argue.

let me first set the context here; I am talking movie and novel canon only, but my argument I belive can be
applied to legends as well.

if we look to the prequals, to Qui-Gon the character the whole term is coined from.
What does he actually do force wise, what is his philosophy regarding the jedi code and the aspects of light
and dark

he is know not no always follow the will of the jedi council and can at times be assumed to be a little bit of
"gry" as in no jedi like.
I beg to differ, I belive he is in fact fitting the main and original "grey jedi" meaning, those that at times
or "often" go agains the advice and will of the counsil, and those that operate failry independent within the
order, aka most if not all jedi not seated on the counsil.

If we take into consideration that we only follow Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, the latter still being a padawan and
as such still not knowing fully how the order works. He can then argue for more adherence to the direct
commands/will of the counsil than a more experinced jedi like his master that sees all the freedom he has within
the limits of the jedi tennants, meaning he can take side routes and even work in the shadow and with the
more shadowy and even at times melign elements of the galaxy in order to serve the greater casue.

We see this on tattooine, where Qui-Gon says that "Greed can be a powerful ally" and the he goes on to
use the force, manipulating the feeling of greed in Watto.
He did however not use the dark side of the force, he did not mix the two, he used the light side of the
force to bend a feeling, in this case a feeling that is assciated with the dark side and evil, as we often
and in most cultures see greed.

He (Qui-Gon) learned how to become a force ghost, though he could only manifest as a voice, but still
thought Yoda the secret (or so it was canon, but that could have changed)
This to me indicates that he could not be dark in any way, not even grey as in the aspects of the force.

Also what exact role Qui-Gon holds within the order, what roles he held are also things to consider and
things that so far have remained very vague.
Again since we only follow him and obi wan in EP1, we have no way of knowing if he/they are tout average
counsilor or guardian, or what ever other role they may have.

We can argue if by colors of a lightsaber, a cousilor is considered to be green, and the classic blue color
asscociated with the more warrior oriented jedi guardians.
While I too see much of these destictions in my own head canon, I cam to the conclusion that if this is the
case then qui-gon and Obi-Wan is an odd couple.
I would assume that a guardian would train another guardian, and vice versa, but Qui-Gon bears the classical
green saber we accosicate with the counsilor the less martially oriented.

less martially oriented, yet Qui-gon was considered a very very strong lightsaber combatant, not fully fitting
the image of the more peaceful green sbered counsilor, so I was thinking.
Since we only follow this couple, we could assume they are not an odd couple, but there are several other
cases of this, and that these are the "grey" jedi, they are in many senses both counsilor and guardian.

We can assume that the way Qui-Gon acts, is well within the "rules" and his experience lets him know this more
than Obi-Wan, and as such his actions does not make him "grey", nt even his appearenty going against the
withes of the counsil, the will of force comes first to a jedi, even the consil, and we saw this later.

Now If we then look into the aspect of grey and the grey jedi, I would argu ethis to be many and many even most
jedi. I would argue that some jedi focus on an more excusively advisoray role with others focusing more on
combat alone, but these to me would only fit within the order as those that operate and run the academy
the counsil, teachers and instructors.

The "field jedi" as I choose to calle them I would say are all "grey" they will be the jedi that while can be selected
to sit on the counsil and in many cases are, they are also the jedi that needs to have the most versitily in
both knowledge and skill, and freedom to operate, even in the shadow and the "gutter"
In order to be capable to do this, they need to manipulate the "darkness" in others at times, and do other
things considered by most to be at times non jedi like.

We later see this with Obi Wan and Anakin, both being blue light saber users, indicating both being mostly combat
focused, but other than the clone wars animated series, what doe we see them actually do?
We see Obi-Wan being the teacher who like his master before him, teaches both the art of diplomacy as well
as combat, though Anakin appears to focus more on combat alone, we see this later as darth vader
on the opposite side we see old Obi Wan, teaching Luke and being the peaceful diplomat, it is only post
EP5 and actually after his time with Yoda, generally considered a peace and not combat focused jedi, yet still
formidable and sill teaching ( one would assume with obi wan being dead) luke more than the tiny fraction we see
on screen, we see how much better his skill is with the lightsaber in the duel at bespin.

We later see luke again acting in what most see as "dark" or grey manners, and again I dare disagree, he
acts according to what jedi do, they are veristile and have maybe "total" freedom to operate within the
tennenats and rules of the order, again said rules of field operators we would not fully know as they are not listed

We can also assume that there are many jedi fitting the "field operator" tyep of jedi, being grey in the eyes
of most of fans, acting and doing things we would question, but that would make sense if we heed to the
saying that the jedi are great warriors, and as such they should be able to defeat even an enemy that
acts and forces certain acts, and as such we see them not meddling directly as an order in politics and as
such help facilitate "suffering", like slavery, and totalitarian regimes within and in contact with the republic
However we also see the order deploy jedi ti work in the shadows, freeing slaves, ending dictatorships, and
helping freedom movements, all this would require the jedi to be at times quite the rouge, and I would argue
that it is these "rougish" jedi, the hands on jedi operators, like qui-gon and later obi wan, that are the ones
we see as grey, even though these "grey jedi" as anyone diffrent actually does not exist

In short the "grey" jedi is the jedi that balances both the martial and diplomatic aspects of the force,
more so than many of the jedi archetypes who are more and at times exclusively focused towards either
othe the two aspects.

I would say the grey jedi not only exist but that they are the "regular jedi" out there, and that the
Fan conceptual "grey jedi" does not exist in any way.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something similar was created for the High Republic series... the Jedi Wayseeker. They were Jedi who operated independently of the Council, but were still recognized as being Jedi, not fallen in any capacity.

I tend to agree with you that a lot of Jedi are going to bend the rules to varying degrees, remaining true to the ideals of the Jedi, without necessarily always following the Council directly... that was more or less the definition of Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano in Clone Wars.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that the Jedi Order's relationship with the Force has many parallels with a religion, not in the sense of worshipping a deity, but something more akin to a philosophical and moral tradition like Taoism. Most such belief systems develop internal sects, where the primary texts either don't address a particular issue, or leave it up to the individual conscience of the believer, and thus individuals may be of the same "belief" while still having different opinions as to certain specifics.

In religious terms, the main Jedi Order might be considered Orthodox, while the so-called "Greys" might be the Radical or Progressive Sect, in that, while they are all still Jedi, those who believe certain things tend to congregate with like minds. Because of the Jedi Code's emphasis on peace and understanding, these divisions have never come to blows, but there would still be some degree of internal strife, with orthodox Jedi not fully trusting the Radicals, maybe even going so far as to pass them over for promotion to positions on the various councils.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

In religious terms, the main Jedi Order might be considered Orthodox, while the so-called "Greys" might be the Radical or Progressive Sect, in that, while they are all still Jedi, those who believe certain things tend to congregate with like minds. Because of the Jedi Code's emphasis on peace and understanding, these divisions have never come to blows, but there would still be some degree of internal strife, with orthodox Jedi not fully trusting the Radicals, maybe even going so far as to pass them over for promotion to positions on the various councils.


Interesting idea, it reminds me of the comment Obi-wan made to Qui-gon in Episode 1 about already being a member of the council if he didn't go against their wishes so frequently.

Also, I've kind of run the Jedi this way without having Grey Jedi's be part of the order, but some Jedi like Jocasta who have a much more narrow specialty, some being considered to be tiptoeing the thin line between light and dark by the more orthodox Jedi.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Something similar was created for the High Republic series... the Jedi Wayseeker. They were Jedi who operated independently of the Council, but were still recognized as being Jedi, not fallen in any capacity.

I tend to agree with you that a lot of Jedi are going to bend the rules to varying degrees, remaining true to the ideals of the Jedi, without necessarily always following the Council directly... that was more or less the definition of Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano in Clone Wars.


Indeed these jedi can easily fit the "gray" label.
I was also thinking about some of the prestige jedi classes from the d20 star wars(es), we had this investigator, one I would call ebing on the more rogueish side given his skills.
If we dive further into the d20s we have some of the prestige jedi that we also find in our beloved and the only rightful star wars rpg system, d6.
What stands out are templates form the tales of the jedi, especially the jedi Shadow, by descriotion alone this screams to fit the "grey" label.

But given the in my mind fairly conservative counsil and the jedi we see operate I would argue all or most still would fit the most common usage of "grey" a much less conservative jedi if you will

Quinlan Vos is one such jedi, what is his mission on tattooine, why would he not help, I would assume like qui gon and obi wan he would feel both the presence of anakin and later of maul when he arrives.

Why was quinlan chosen to go on a mission to assassinate somone, we know this to be dooku.
We know he did fall to the dark side and we know he was redeemed....I would say with the lack of knowledge about him before the phantom menace
and what we read about him doing, and how we see him obviously doing "something" and so under conver he would even aid another jedi that he would have felt, again I would say that unless you are working at the temple you can not avoid being a grey jedi.

I see it as a framed picture, the frame is the force and the jedi tennants, the motive is what ever the jedi makes of it, his freedom to operate, to make his own piecture within the frame. This is what I would assume most jedi would do and what I would think is what we consider fitting the term.
The counsil and the temple personnel lives and works and operates daily in a uch more conservative and rule focused society, having aldready made a large part of the picture , leaving little blank white space for their own crative ways of doing things.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the fan conception of grey Jedi does not exist and grey Jedi are really just regular Jedi, there is hardly any need for any "grey Jedi" label. Qui-Gon was a notable because (1) he was a particularly powerful and wise Jedi Master, and (2) he dissented against the Jedi High Council at times. He viewed the highest authority in the galaxy to be his personal interpretation of the will of the Force. A lot of Jedi out in the Republic may have been like Qui-Gon to lesser degrees. They are just non-High-Council Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights. No need to slap a "grey" on them.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
If the fan conception of grey Jedi does not exist and grey Jedi are really just regular Jedi, there is hardly any need for any "grey Jedi" label. Qui-Gon was a notable because (1) he was a particularly powerful and wise Jedi Master, and (2) he dissented against the Jedi High Council at times. He viewed the highest authority in the galaxy to be his personal interpretation of the will of the Force. A lot of Jedi out in the Republic may have been like Qui-Gon to lesser degrees. They are just non-High-Council Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights. No need to slap a "grey" on them.


Exactly!
it is sort of my point of the rant, that your avarage jedi, the everyone, mer jedi knight and master that is out there jediing throughout the glakaxy are not a unified well coreograophed oder with everyne thinng and acting in unison, so I can see how even the average jedi escorting a diplomat or something else mundane, can become what some of the fan base have labeled the "gery" . We see this again in the Phantom menace, where the fairly travel from A to B mission to bring queen amaidala to corusacent went more than just a little bit sideways becuse the ship took a hit.
Now the jedi needed to show other skills than the bare minimum you need to wava hands and use the force wheile waling around in rooms with other "takers", important and even vital skill foe the jedi and most likely the skill most jedi rely on most of the time, but then the ship's hyperdrive mailfunctions, something happens and the jedi need to be able to think on hiis feet, to adapt and he needs to have the skills to do this, and he may have to go the long route to get back to his true task, and all this require someone that at times will go whtir own ways to go agains the will of the counsil for the moment.

I kind of see it as a platoon leader in the field, he has the order to hold the house, but the conditions on the battlefield require him to even retreat, maybe to the house across the street and try to retake it...the general staff could be miles away, giving otrders based on outdated intelligence.

Now the jedi have the force and can see things, but we have never seen examples of the jedi counsil ahve a group of seers that looks into every possible confilict they deploy a jedi to and they do this live.
So yes we do not at all need the label to stand, there is no such thing as a grey jedi, there is just a jedi.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.
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