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Alternate Ammo Types
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
AND they (iirc from the one video i remember seeing on them), worked great to punch through walls!!!

How was it compared to regular bullets of the same caliber?


All i remember of the video, was then shooting it at 3 breeze blocks and it punching through further than normal rounds did.
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lecher000
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is where advanced manufacturing techniques would come into play, such as lining the cavity in some non-metal material that kept the mercury from amalgamating with the metal of the bullet.


Yea, but even then I don't think you're going to see much difference in penetration. In terms of wound channels you could very well see an increase, as the liquid forces the bullet to expand more greatly, but seeing as we have zero physical evidence to confirm that, I'll leave it at poisoning effects.

Quote:
Which is why I didn't just stop there and searched for people who had actually tried it, which is why I said it was theoretically possible.


I've heard a lot from people online claiming to be gun experts saying a lot of stuff. I remember back in the 2000's there was that popular rumor that the katana's of the Japanese Imperial Army would cut the barrels off US machine guns, which is utter nonsense. Not saying the forum you went to was, but the theoretical possibility of it is still just that. At most, I can remove the penalty against body armor, or give them a +2 bonus to damage against organics. I'm leaning towards the +2 bonus to damage because of the possibility of larger wound channels.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lecher000 wrote:
Yea, but even then I don't think you're going to see much difference in penetration. In terms of wound channels you could very well see an increase, as the liquid forces the bullet to expand more greatly, but seeing as we have zero physical evidence to confirm that, I'll leave it at poisoning effects.

In that case, I'd keep the -1D Damage vs Armor (representing the round starting to fragment on impact with the armor instead of the target's body), with +1D to Damage overall to represent the additional damage the round fragmenting will do if it hits an unarmored target. For example, Stormtrooper Armor would offer a net offset of -3D to the Damage from a round like this, even if it would normally do 6D+ against an unarmored target.
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lecher000
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
lecher000 wrote:
Yea, but even then I don't think you're going to see much difference in penetration. In terms of wound channels you could very well see an increase, as the liquid forces the bullet to expand more greatly, but seeing as we have zero physical evidence to confirm that, I'll leave it at poisoning effects.

In that case, I'd keep the -1D Damage vs Armor (representing the round starting to fragment on impact with the armor instead of the target's body), with +1D to Damage overall to represent the additional damage the round fragmenting will do if it hits an unarmored target. For example, Stormtrooper Armor would offer a net offset of -3D to the Damage from a round like this, even if it would normally do 6D+ against an unarmored target.


I gave them a +2 bonus to damage and removed the armor penalty. Giving them a full dice upgrade seems excessive given that they also have a poisoning effect.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lecher000 wrote:
I gave them a +2 bonus to damage and removed the armor penalty. Giving them a full dice upgrade seems excessive given that they also have a poisoning effect.

The poisoning is secondary, really. What would happen here is that the round would fragment sooner and more forcefully than a normal bullet, so when a character is wearing armor, the bullet will come apart before it fully penetrates the armor, thus wasting a lot of its energy punching through. To me, that says the armor penalty is actually appropriate in this instance.
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lecher000
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
lecher000 wrote:
I gave them a +2 bonus to damage and removed the armor penalty. Giving them a full dice upgrade seems excessive given that they also have a poisoning effect.

The poisoning is secondary, really. What would happen here is that the round would fragment sooner and more forcefully than a normal bullet, so when a character is wearing armor, the bullet will come apart before it fully penetrates the armor, thus wasting a lot of its energy punching through. To me, that says the armor penalty is actually appropriate in this instance.


Oh, I misread your original post it seems, as it was around 4 AM when I posted that response, so I'll put the armor penalty back up. As for the fragmenting, frangible ammunition already does that, but it lacks the ability to cause large wound channels because it isn't able to hold the energy as reliably, so I don't think it should gain a +3D advantage against unarmored targets.

As for the poisoning effect, that's the primary reason you would want to use them. There are far better ways of taking out an unarmored target than fragmenting ammunition, which is what hollow points were designed to do because it keeps the energy while keeping the bullet mostly intact.

SIDENOTE; Added Shield Penetrating rounds under slugthrower ammunition.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lecher000 wrote:
so I don't think it should gain a +3D advantage against unarmored targets.

That's not quite what I said. My point was that the round should suffer the -1D penalty to Damage vs. Armor, but that is in addition to any bonuses the Armor itself provides against Physical Damage.

Say, for instance, you are firing one of the rounds with a 5D Damage at a Stormtrooper (Strength 2D) wearing normal Stormtrooper Armor (+1D vs. Energy, +2D vs. Physical). Because of the penalty, the round would be reduced to 4D Damage, but with his armor, the trooper gets a combined 4D to resist (2D Strength + 2D Physical Armor), so the difference is 0D.

Take the armor away, however, and the trooper only gets 2D to resist, while the bullet itself goes up to 5D (since it's now being fired at an unarmored target), so the difference goes up to 3D.

The difference in effectiveness between armored and unarmored will then vary based on how effective the armor is against physical attacks. So when I say "+3D Advantage," that's not a lump bonus, but rather a net total of how effective armor is at protecting against an attack of this type, once all factors are accounted for.

Quote:
As for the poisoning effect, that's the primary reason you would want to use them. There are far better ways of taking out an unarmored target than fragmenting ammunition, which is what hollow points were designed to do because it keeps the energy while keeping the bullet mostly intact.

If that were the case, you'd probably want to go with something a lot more fast acting and exotic than mercury. If I were to make a ruling at the table, I'd make spotting mercury in a patient's blood stream an Easy or Very Easy First Aid roll, treated with broad-spectrum detox treatments found in every Med Pack.

Of course, it's difficult to say if fast acting nerve toxins or something similar would achieve the same shattering effect achieved with something like mercury inside a bullet.

On a similar note, I'm reminded of the Agonizer Rounds used in the Dark Eldar Splinter Rifles in WH40K. The rounds essentially immobilize organics targets in agonizing pain, and since Dark Eldar derive sustenance from the suffering of others... But I digress.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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lecher000
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
lecher000 wrote:
so I don't think it should gain a +3D advantage against unarmored targets.

That's not quite what I said. My point was that the round should suffer the -1D penalty to Damage vs. Armor, but that is in addition to any bonuses the Armor itself provides against Physical Damage.

Say, for instance, you are firing one of the rounds with a 5D Damage at a Stormtrooper (Strength 2D) wearing normal Stormtrooper Armor (+1D vs. Energy, +2D vs. Physical). Because of the penalty, the round would be reduced to 4D Damage, but with his armor, the trooper gets a combined 4D to resist (2D Strength + 2D Physical Armor), so the difference is 0D.

Take the armor away, however, and the trooper only gets 2D to resist, while the bullet itself goes up to 5D (since it's now being fired at an unarmored target), so the difference goes up to 3D.


Ahh, I see what you're saying now.

Quote:
If that were the case, you'd probably want to go with something a lot more fast acting and exotic than mercury. If I were to make a ruling at the table, I'd make spotting mercury in a patient's blood stream an Easy or Very Easy First Aid roll, treated with broad-spectrum detox treatments found in every Med Pack.


Of course, which is why they're a hypothesized instrument in assassinations. Even if the target survives, they are heavily poisoned with mercury spread throughout the impact.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Alternate Ammo Types Reply with quote

lecher000 wrote:
*Shield Penetrator - These rounds cost 8 times as much as standard ammunition, but ignore energy-based shields. They're jacketed with a special EMF-dampening substance that temporarily creates pockets for the bullets to slip through.

I think this is too powerful. By ignoring "any" shields, you're opening up the potential for this round to effortlessly penetrate Death Star-Scale planetary defense shields. Yes, it may sound ridiculous, but just wait until a PC springs it on you at the table.

I suggest the route I went with Proton Torpedoes for my Starfighter Combat re-write and have them ignore up to a certain number of dice in Shields (I went with 3D for Proton Torpedoes). For example, if an energy shield provided 6D of Protection, the bullet would only have to roll against 3D to penetrate (assuming we're treating the shield as Protection).
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lecher000
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Alternate Ammo Types Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
lecher000 wrote:
*Shield Penetrator - These rounds cost 8 times as much as standard ammunition, but ignore energy-based shields. They're jacketed with a special EMF-dampening substance that temporarily creates pockets for the bullets to slip through.

I think this is too powerful. By ignoring "any" shields, you're opening up the potential for this round to effortlessly penetrate Death Star-Scale planetary defense shields. Yes, it may sound ridiculous, but just wait until a PC springs it on you at the table.

I suggest the route I went with Proton Torpedoes for my Starfighter Combat re-write and have them ignore up to a certain number of dice in Shields (I went with 3D for Proton Torpedoes). For example, if an energy shield provided 6D of Protection, the bullet would only have to roll against 3D to penetrate (assuming we're treating the shield as Protection).


Sure, but the Hull of a Death Star is 15D, ontop of its 24D scale, giving it effectively 39D in defense against a gun that will likely max out with high caliber rounds at...what, 7D, maybe 8 or 9D? The only possible way you'd damage the death star with a character scale gun is if you rolled all 6's and the Death Star rolled a 1 for literally every single dice, which is statistically impossible, and even overcoming that statistical impossibility, if you manage to achieve that you still only ionized the controls at most. If you were going to use a weapon on a larger scale, you would simply multiple the cost of the ammo by the scale-increase of the dice so ammunition for a Speeder-scale Shield Penetrator becomes x16 standard ammo cost, and Walker scale becomes x36 standard ammo cost, and so on. The Death Star's shields only provide a modicum of defense anyway with a measly 2D.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is, based on the way shields of that type are written up, they don't stack with what they're protecting. As such, the only option is to treat the shield as Protection (see pgs. 93-94 of the 2R&E Rulebook), which means the attack has to roll against the Shield dice on their own in order to see if they penetrate enough to damage what ever is standing behind them. So, a character in a space suit on one side of, say, the shield gate of the Scariff Gate Station, could fire one of these bullets through that shield, ignoring the 3D Death Star-Scale Protection (adjusts to 27D Character-Scale) as though it wasn't even there, and hit a character in a space suit on the other side unimpeded.

I brought up the Death Star-Scale example to point out the most extreme consequence of allowing your bullet to effortlessly penetrate any shield, regardless of its strength. It is always better to codify exactly how much of an energy barrier something can overcome, on the off chance that your players land you in a situation where your word choices come back to bite you.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Alternate Ammo Types Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
lecher000 wrote:
*Shield Penetrator - These rounds cost 8 times as much as standard ammunition, but ignore energy-based shields. They're jacketed with a special EMF-dampening substance that temporarily creates pockets for the bullets to slip through.

I think this is too powerful. By ignoring "any" shields, you're opening up the potential for this round to effortlessly penetrate Death Star-Scale planetary defense shields. Yes, it may sound ridiculous, but just wait until a PC springs it on you at the table.

I suggest the route I went with Proton Torpedoes for my Starfighter Combat re-write and have them ignore up to a certain number of dice in Shields (I went with 3D for Proton Torpedoes). For example, if an energy shield provided 6D of Protection, the bullet would only have to roll against 3D to penetrate (assuming we're treating the shield as Protection).


At most id say it would ignore up to speeder level shields..
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing the thread is about various types of ammo, I wanted to suggest something.

Practice Ammo: Heavily reduced Blaster Chrage meant for non lethal simulated warfare.
The bolt is chraged with static charges that is designed to bypass armor energy disperment, and as such deal the full damage to armored opponents

The bolt however only deals Non lethal damage, with all dmage normally above wounded resulting in incapacitation/stun.
Any damage up to wounded is calculated normally.

Practice Ammo: Damage 1D+2

The premise here is for live fire excercises, traning of combat medics for the "lesser wounds and light burns form the hits" and for the soldiers to experience what a more real combat environment is like without the risk of casualites.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternate Ammo Types Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
At most id say it would ignore up to speeder level shields..

That has its own problems. Say you've got one shield stated at Speeder-Scale that provides 4D of Protection, and another stated at Walker-Scale providing 2D of Protection. Both balance out to 6D Protection at Character-Scale, but because one is Speeder-Scale, the bullet ignores it, while the Walker-Scale one resists it at full strength.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lecher000 wrote:
Of course, which is why they're a hypothesized instrument in assassinations. Even if the target survives, they are heavily poisoned with mercury spread throughout the impact.

That's the thing, though; mercury is a known element, not some complex solution. It'd be pretty easily recognizable on a tox-screen for exactly what it is. If you're really looking for a poisoning effect, you'd need something faster-acting and more complex, which is harder both to detect and to synthesize an antidote. That's why I suggested having it just increase the Difficulty of healing rolls, because the mercury itself is going to be relatively easy to counter in an advanced-tech setting.

EDIT: Based on that, I could easily see having two different modifiers, a higher one for Natural Healing, and a lower one for healing rolls using Medpacs / Bacta Tanks.
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