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Dune
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Dune Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
As someone familiar with the story I know what is missing, but I wonder about how many viewers who aren't familiar will really get into the film enough to read the novel.

I love Dune and I enjoyed this film, but watching this film still feels like Avengers: Infinity War without Endgame. And unfortunately, we have to wait even longer to get this Part Two. I plan to watch Part One one more time in the next few weeks, but I won't buy it or probably even watch it again until right before I see Part Two.


I kind of had the same reaction about "will people be able to follow this?" We brought a friend who had never had any exposure to Dune before and she was 100% on board and caught things that I thought weren't sufficiently addressed. She's pretty sharp, analytic, and observant, so others' mileage may vary.

I agree that it is kind of a shame that we're only getting half a story. But I guess that's the way Hollywood is telling longer stories now. Hobbit? Three films. Avengers? Two movies. The Little Engine That Could? Seven film epic.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately Part 2 is already apparently greenlit.

And it might be here sooner than we might have originally guessed, assuming viral pandemics or other unforeseen events don't interfere.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Part 2 hopes to ramp up production in 2022 with a tentative release window of October 2023."

It can't get here fast enough.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoose and I both want to see it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth noting that ornithopters already exist in the SWU. Might be an interesting crossover for use with Alliance ground forces; maybe using wings reduces their sensor signature. I expect ornithopters use repulsorlifts to some degree to ease the strain on the wings, combined with booster engines for added thrust.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Dune Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
...Hobbit? Three films...

The Hobbit didn't really need to be three movies, but Dune always felt like it did need to be two movies (or one epic four hour movie).

MrNexx wrote:
Spoose and I both want to see it.

Theatrical viewing has been recommended, but one month of HBO Max is $14.99, and there's no obligation to continue.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Worth noting that ornithopters already exist in the SWU. Might be an interesting crossover for use with Alliance ground forces; maybe using wings reduces their sensor signature. I expect ornithopters use repulsorlifts to some degree to ease the strain on the wings, combined with booster engines for added thrust.

Ease the strain? As depicted, anti-grav tech is the only way they could fly.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of like the idea that tech like ornithopters or even jet planes would just be weird to most people on sensors. Like, there's obviously SOMETHING there, but it doesn't have the right repulsorlift signature for as high as it is...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take is that a repulsorlift vehicle is a combination of two or three different component systems, depending on the vehicle itself. The first is the actual anti-gravity system that negates most/all of the pull of gravity on the vehicle (aka lift), and the second is a separate system that provides propulsion (thrust). For landspeeders, it's a tractor/pusher field on the underside, projecting at an acute angle to both the bottom of the speeder and the ground underneath it, thus providing lateral movement in line with the slop of the ground; for airspeeders, it's an onboard impeller that imparts kinetic energy to the body of the craft without having to "push" off the ground. The third component (which not every repulsorlift has) is supplemental booster engines used to augment the main propulsion for straight-line speed.

At least one of the first two components is detectable enough for homing weapons to guide on (the PLEX missile has a home-on-repulsorlift mode), so it's likely readable on standard sensors, as well.

For ornithopters, my take is that the wings provide the thrust component in place of an impeller, augmented by thrusters for speed (jet engines on ornithopters are mentioned in the Dune series). I'd very much like to have the impeller/tractor field be the component with the most obvious sensor signature, as I have a couple other ideas for stealth flying craft that use rotary wing tech that would pair well with this principle. However, I don't have much in the way of technobabble to explain it that way.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if the plan is for Melange to provide limited prescience, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to run Mentats or Bene-Gesserit?

Also, I had thought about the Ixians / Bene Tleilaxu. If the idea is to put the Dune setting in a satellite galaxy or star cluster where normal hyperspace travel is impeded somehow, Ix and Tleilaxu could be border worlds just outside of the interference zone that provide connection points between the SW galaxy and the Dune setting, which would also help to explain their technological capability, in that it is partially imported from the greater galaxy.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read the Dune novel since '84, so may be forgetting some background details.

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, if the plan is for Melange to provide limited prescience, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to run Mentats or Bene-Gesserit?

I think the Metabarons RPG may have ideas on mentat-like characters.

In Dune, the Bene-Gesserits powers seem to be something that all woman are capable of with training, but men aren't expected to do them with training. Since The Force itself doesn't favor one sex or the other, the obvious choice for Bene-Gesserits is an all-woman Force-tradition. But since they are into genetic engineering by manipulating bloodlines, maybe they long ago took control of all Force-sensitive bloodlines in this satellite galaxy and only produce daughters. Sure, that doesn't mean random Force-sensitivity can't occasionally still occur.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, I had thought about the Ixians / Bene Tleilaxu. If the idea is to put the Dune setting in a satellite galaxy or star cluster where normal hyperspace travel is impeded somehow, Ix and Tleilaxu could be border worlds just outside of the interference zone that provide connection points between the SW galaxy and the Dune setting, which would also help to explain their technological capability, in that it is partially imported from the greater galaxy.

My SWU has two important satellite galaxies I have talked about here for years – I have fluffed out Companions Cresh and Dorn. One is called "the Human Galaxy" and is based on Metabarons (which was inspired by Dune) and has almost no nonhumans. The other, "the Whills Galaxy," has a section known as the Whills Nebula. The central star system has a desert planet like Arrakis, and it is the only source of a "spice" that allows space travel within the "nebula." Instead of sandworms there are dragons that live there, and they have a different relationship with the spice (which comes from a relatively rare plant which will not produce the spice anywhere else). There is a spice/space guild that controls interstellar travel in the Nebula, and the nature of the Nebula makes hyperspace travel within it extremely difficult. This spice isn't known to give one the ability to 'fold space,' but instead it gives non-Force-sensitives the ability to perform a form of instinctive astrogation, which is required to astrogate safely within the Nebula. But the spice only works for certain species, and humans aren't one of them. The species it works for are all the common alien species that have colonized the Nebula, so humans are a distinct minority there. The purpose of the Nebula's remoteness and dependence on aliens for hyperspace travel is mainly to justify why it was seemingly ignored by the Empire for so long.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In Dune, the Bene-Gesserits powers seem to be something that all woman are capable of with training, but men aren't expected to do them with training. Since The Force itself doesn't favor one sex or the other, the obvious choice for Bene-Gesserits is an all-woman Force-tradition. But since they are into genetic engineering by manipulating bloodlines, maybe they long ago took control of all Force-sensitive bloodlines in this satellite galaxy and only produce daughters. Sure, that doesn't mean random Force-sensitivity can't occasionally still occur.

Based on how it's described in the series, I wouldn't make it Force-based at all, save for the prescience aspect of Melange. Apart from the bio-manipulation of the Tleilaxu, most of the seemingly super-human aspects of the Duniverse are the result of natural aptitudes honed with intense training practically from birth.


Quote:
My SWU has two important satellite galaxies I have talked about here for years – I have fluffed out Companions Cresh and Dorn. One is called "the Human Galaxy" and is based on Metabarons (which was inspired by Dune) and has almost no nonhumans. The other, "the Whills Galaxy," has a section known as the Whills Nebula. The central star system has a desert planet like Arrakis, and it is the only source of a "spice" that allows space travel within the "nebula." Instead of sandworms there are dragons that live there, and they have a different relationship with the spice (which comes from a relatively rare plant which will not produce the spice anywhere else). There is a spice/space guild that controls interstellar travel in the Nebula, and the nature of the Nebula makes hyperspace travel within it extremely difficult. This spice isn't known to give one the ability to 'fold space,' but instead it gives non-Force-sensitives the ability to perform a form of instinctive astrogation, which is required to astrogate safely within the Nebula. But the spice only works for certain species, and humans aren't one of them. The species it works for are all the common alien species that have colonized the Nebula, so humans are a distinct minority there. The purpose of the Nebula's remoteness and dependence on aliens for hyperspace travel is mainly to justify why it was seemingly ignored by the Empire for so long.

Spice giving the ability to fold space is a misnomer; that's not a thing in the actual Duniverse. Space folding was a function of the Guild Heighliner ships' FTL drives. Melange pretty much does what you describe, essentially granting the navigators a temporary Instinctive Astrogation ability, which isn't much of a stretch since there's already precedent in the SWU for spice granting temporary Force abilities (Glitterstim and Receptive Telepathy).

I recall you mentioning the companion galaxies as part of your Dune crossover in the past. I'm a little surprised you decided to put aliens into your version, seeing as how the Duniverse was exclusively human, but hey, your setting, your rules. I'm not hugely invested in a Dune crossover beyond idle speculation, but it's fun to play around with.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Based on how it's described in the series, I wouldn't make it Force-based at all, save for the prescience aspect of Melange... which isn't much of a stretch since there's already precedent in the SWU for spice granting temporary Force abilities (Glitterstim and Receptive Telepathy).

That only if you want a spice to have the ability to grant metaphysical powers to non-FSs. Other than the instinctive astrogation aspect of the one particular spice, I don't. And that only works in the Whills Nebula, because there is a connection between the spice and the nebula. Outside of the Nebula, it does not aid in astrogation at all. I don't like Glitterstim granting Receptive Telepathy, so in my SWU it doesn't.

Quote:
Space folding was a function of the Guild Heighliner ships' FTL drives. Melange pretty much does what you describe, essentially granting the navigators a temporary Instinctive Astrogation ability

What is the FTL based on? Does Herbert even specify?

Quote:
Whill wrote:
But the spice only works for certain species, and humans aren't one of them. The species it works for are all the common alien species that have colonized the Nebula, so humans are a distinct minority there. The purpose of the Nebula's remoteness and dependence on aliens for hyperspace travel is mainly to justify why it was seemingly ignored by the Empire for so long.

I recall you mentioning the companion galaxies as part of your Dune crossover in the past. I'm a little surprised you decided to put aliens into your version, seeing as how the Duniverse was exclusively human, but hey, your setting, your rules. I'm not hugely invested in a Dune crossover beyond idle speculation, but it's fun to play around with.

The Whills Nebula is not and was never intended on being a full adaptation of Dune in my SWU. The spice only working for certain alien species explains why the human-centric Empire hasn't invaded it before the campaign begins that will be set there. I was just inspired by some aspects of Dune. The Whills Nebula is the origin of the Celestials, and the "Nebula" was created as space-time pollution from their early subspace drive.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That only if you want a spice to have the ability to grant metaphysical powers to non-FSs.

It's not my favorite part of the EU, but I'm not hugely bothered by it. I strongly suspect that Glitterstim's effect was a KJA rip-off of Melange, but there's been enough speculation about drugs expanding human consciousness that having certain chemicals provide temporary Force powers isn't a stretch for me.


Quote:
And that only works in the Whills Nebula, because there is a connection between the spice and the nebula. Outside of the Nebula, it does not aid in astrogation at all.

My thinking was to have a Dune crossover setting be located in a gravitic anomaly similar to the trans-galactic barrier separating the Unknown Regions, with hyperspace travel being hugely difficult due to shifting gravitic patterns in hyperspace or some such. As such, the Guild Heighliners can't rely on previous course data, and the navigators have to plot a new route every time. The ships are hugely slow by the standards of the rest of the SWU (on account of having to travel at low speeds on convoluted routes), but are the only way to travel in the "Dune region" itself. Because of the slow speeds and the expense of having to use dedicated navigators, the system is nowhere near as efficient and economical as simply having a Navcomputer installed in a ship, but it is what works within the space in question.

However, there are "border worlds" where trade with the greater galaxy occurs, and cargo is cross-docked between Guild ships and more standard galactic freighters. The "inner worlds" are stand-offish regarding these border worlds on account of the ban on thinking machines, but are still willing to trade for certain items. Since the Guild is a product of the "inner worlds" it hugely regulates what is allowed in or out, based on their prejudices (i.e. absolutely no droids).

Quote:
What is the FTL based on? Does Herbert even specify?

It's never clarified that I'm aware of, but it is stated that navigators use their prescient abilities to see into the future to plot the safest course. It could just as easily be something like Trek Warp drives, or a point-to-point jump ala the BSG Reimagined series, but it fits well enough with SWU hyperdrives that the crossover is easy enough.

Quote:
The Whills Nebula is not and was never intended on being a full adaptation of Dune in my SWU. The spice only working for certain alien species explains why the human-centric Empire hasn't invaded it before the campaign begins that will be set there. I was just inspired by some aspects of Dune. The Whills Nebula is the origin of the Celestials, and the "Nebula" was created as space-time pollution from their early subspace drive.

Ah. Gotcha.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thinking was to have a Dune crossover setting be located in a gravitic anomaly similar to the trans-galactic barrier separating the Unknown Regions, with hyperspace travel being hugely difficult due to shifting gravitic patterns in hyperspace or some such. As such, the Guild Heighliners can't rely on previous course data, and the navigators have to plot a new route every time. The ships are hugely slow by the standards of the rest of the SWU (on account of having to travel at low speeds on convoluted routes), but are the only way to travel in the "Dune region" itself. Because of the slow speeds and the expense of having to use dedicated navigators, the system is nowhere near as efficient and economical as simply having a Navcomputer installed in a ship, but it is what works within the space in question.

However, there are "border worlds" where trade with the greater galaxy occurs, and cargo is cross-docked between Guild ships and more standard galactic freighters. The "inner worlds" are stand-offish regarding these border worlds on account of the ban on thinking machines, but are still willing to trade for certain items. Since the Guild is a product of the "inner worlds" it hugely regulates what is allowed in or out, based on their prejudices (i.e. absolutely no droids).

Sounds cool!
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