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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Regarding;
| Quote: | Force powers being different in how they are managed.
That some powers should have passive traits
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Agreed - as part of my house rules, I have modified it a bit.
(as inspired by pouring over rules, comments here etc.).
There is a Force Stat.
it has three skills.
Control, sense, alter.
Force powers are just advanced skills.
They have requirements in ranks of control, sense or alter.
They use the same costing structure as other advanced skills.
the only difference is that when using one, their skill bonus is stat + skill _ advanced skill.
But I have made other advanced skills the same, and just increased difficulties - so in my game, they are consistent.
Some skills grant passive abilities, and do not need to be kept "up".
Some do.
This was also done, so I could introduce other advanced skills for non-jedi ; martial arts, Officer (more skills for commanders), Mentalist (master manipulator), Marksman (shooting related), Art of the Deal (trade, con etc.).
Once I get them more firmed up, will post.
Oh, (and almost back on topic) will have a fatigue rating .... 
Once I get this refined a bit more - will post topics on it. |
I'm looking forward to seeing that, pakman.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Force powers are just advanced skills.
They have requirements in ranks of control, sense or alter.
They use the same costing structure as other advanced skills.
the only difference is that when using one, their skill bonus is stat + skill _ advanced skill. |
That's... an intriguing idea. Obviously, it takes some liberties with the Advanced Skill rules, but not egregiously so. I'm assuming in that last line, you meant 'skill + advanced skill'?
I would suggest allowing characters to 'purchase' new powers at a reduced rate when improving their base Force Skills, and maybe have the 'price' vary based on the complexity of the power in question (say, 5 CP for each skill the power requires, so 5 CP to learn a Control, Sense or Alter power, 10 CP to learn a Control/Sense, Control/Alter or Sense/Alter power, and 15 CP to learn a Control/Sense/Alter power). Charging a base of 5 CP brings it more in line with the RAW where Force users are allowed to learn new powers exclusive of improving Force skills, at a cost of 5 CP.
And of course, denying the character access to a teacher means the character would improve their individual Force powers at quadruple the CP cost (double cost for an Advanced Skill, doubled again for no teacher).
I second Whill. I'm very interested to see where you go with this.
| Quote: | | Marksman (shooting related) |
Since you mention it, have you checked out my Marksman Advanced Skill?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Whill said.
I'm looking forward to seeing that, pakman. |
Thank you sir, it is a labor of love.
I am trying to streamline and add a bit more consistency, while attempting to keep the spirt and balance (where it is balanced) of the main system.
| Quote: | CRMcNeill Said;
That's... an intriguing idea. Obviously, it takes some liberties with the Advanced Skill rules, but not egregiously so.
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Thank you sir. I was trying to leverage things - and determined that advanced skills, with their requirements was a good consistent framework to use as a start (as opposed to adding another mechanic that is not consistent). So, I felt a few liberties was better than yet another mechanic (I looked into specializations, advanced skills, current force powers, or adding something new. I needed something that would blend with using a Force Attribute, with Control Sense and Alter as a skill - and since some powers need more than just one parent skill - specialization did not work - so I want with advanced skills).
| Quote: | CRMcNeill Said;
I'm assuming in that last line, you meant 'skill + advanced skill'? |
In standard nomenclature, yes.
In my game, I segregate the skill bonus into the Skill Rank (it's die code) and the attribute bonus.
How Skills Bonuses work.
Term:
Skill Rank - the die code of the skill itself, with no attribute.
Skill Bonus - the die code of the skill, plus the relevant parent attribute.
Normal Skill Bonus: Attribute + Skill rank.
Specialization Skill Bonus: Attribute + Parent Skill Rank + Specialization skil rank.
Advanced Skill Bonus: Attribute + Relevant Parent Skill + Advanced Skill rank.
So, my move object advanced skill is :
Force Attribute + Alter Rank + Skill Rank in Move object.
This means that a starting jedi with 1 rank in move object, rolls at least 3 dice.
(Force 1D + Alter 1D + Move Object 1D).
Allowing for better capability starting, but the high end is tapered - for more balance.
(along with some powers consuming fatigue, based on skill vs. difficulty of task - this is why luke got tired trying to life the xwing).
By doing so, I made specializations, advanced skills, and force powers all use the exact same consistent mechanic.
(at least as far as bonuses, etc.)
(and supported other advanced skills, like martial arts, etc.).
| Quote: | CRMcNeill Said;
I would suggest allowing characters to 'purchase' ... |
Thank you for that - I will digest it, and I whole hearty want insightful input like this.
I am taking the existing powers, and organizing them, hierarchically - like a tree. (familiar to some rpg's and many video games).
(for example; many of the healing are under the same power (called Restore) - as the die code advanced in the skill, it unlocks better healing - instead of treating it like six different powers).
The challenge is for them to maintain the power levels of the d6 - but better organized and streamlined.
(yes, it is a fools' task).
| Quote: | CRMcNeill Said;
Since you mention it, have you checked out my Marksman Advanced Skill?
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No, but I am now!!!
Once I get it bit more detailed - I will absolutely get feedback and input here.
Even when I do not come to the same results as some of folks here, I do respect their thoughts and processes.
(some folks like different levels of crunchy - which is all good).
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Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | I was trying to leverage things - and determined that advanced skills, with their requirements was a good consistent framework to use as a start (as opposed to adding another mechanic that is not consistent). |
Agreed. I hadn't considered it before, but making Force powers into Advanced Skills (with the minor fudge of allowing the PC to roll both their Base and Advanced Skill Dice when using the power) ties rather nicely into what Nexx was saying earlier, that the Force system veers off into its own unique rules for reasons of (presumably) game balance. Instituting a Force Attribute is a good step in resolving that, but your idea takes it a step further.
In fact, Advanced Skills already has a built-in system for power prerequisites, with the added bonus of requiring a character's Force power prerequisites to have reached a certain level before they can learn the later, higher-level powers. The re-write would simply be a matter of transposing the prerequisite powers into prerequisite Advanced Skills.
Of course then you get into whether or not the various prerequisites stack with the new power, but that's not exactly a bad thing either. We've had more than one conversation here about how powers overlap, so applying prerequisite dice would be an interesting way to factor that in...
| Quote: | In standard nomenclature, yes.
In my game, I segregate the skill bonus into the Skill Rank (it's die code) and the attribute bonus. |
I recall that conversation, and yeah, it's not hard at all to transpose from the RAW to the House Rule depending on what system you use.
| Quote: | I am taking the existing powers, and organizing them, hierarchically - like a tree. (familiar to some rpg's and many video games).
(for example; many of the healing are under the same power (called Restore) - as the die code advanced in the skill, it unlocks better healing - instead of treating it like six different powers). |
In keeping with the design of the system, I would suggest using higher Difficulty levels instead of 'unlocking'. Unlocking higher abilities feels too much like a video game, not D6; the D6 approach would be to say "you can do X at +10 Difficulty." An obvious example is the WEG power Place Another In Hibernation and the EU power Morichro. Per the WEG power, you can only use it on a willing subject, and per Morichro, you can basically weaponize Hibernation Trance to disable a target without inflicting permanent harm. My take is, rather than writing up a completely different power, edit Place Another In Hibernation to say "may be used against an unwilling subject at +10 Difficulty," or make it an opposed Willpower roll, all folded into one power.
| Quote: | | Even when I do not come to the same results as some of folks here, I do respect their thoughts and processes. |
Nothing wrong with that. We are all, as Whill put it previously, tinkerer-GMs, so having a unique system that samples from everyone else's is the norm.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's also worth considering which low-level powers should be tied to the base skills. As we were discussing earlier, some powers should have an instinctive or reaction activation, with Danger Sense being a prime example. Breaking certain powers off into sub-abilities of Sense and Control (I can't picture any of the Alter powers having an instinctive activation aspect) would be a decent way to represent that. It'd just be a matter of deciding which powers to pick. Off the top of my head, Danger Sense and Sense Force are good candidates, with others depending on how passive/active you consider said powers to be used.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | CRMcNeil Said;
In keeping with the design of the system, I would suggest using higher Difficulty levels instead of 'unlocking'.... |
I did a poor job of explaining this (I have not typed it up cleanly).
Here is an example;
RAW:
Control Disease requires the power Accelerate Healing. You learn it when you increase a pip in Control.
Remove Fatigue requires the power Accelerate Healing AND the Power Control Pain, learn it when increase pip in control.
Remain Conscious Requires also requires control pain - learn it when increase pip in control.
Reduce Injury also requires Control pain - learn it when you increase pip in control.
My Hierarchical Tree Concept for this;
Advanced Force Skill: RESTORE.
Requires Control of 1D. (maybe more....you get the idea).
FIRST TIER PICKS when you buy the skill:
ACCELERATE HEALING OR CONTROL PAIN.
SECOND TIER (if you increase Restore advanced skill).
CONTROL DISEASE (only has line to accelerate healing).
REMOVE FATIGUE (has lines to accelerate healing and Control Pain)
REDUCE INJURY (only has line to Control Pain as prereq).
Or a very crude visual;
| Code: | ACC HEALING ---------------- CONTROL PAIN ---------------
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Control Disease Remove Fatigue Reduce Injury Remain Conscious |
Control Disease Only needs Accelerate Healing to get it.
Reduce Injury and Remain Conscious, only need Control Pain.
Remove Fatigue however, requires BOTH Control Pain and Accelerate healing.
Instead of buying them when you increase Control, you buy them when you increase RESTORE (the advanced skill).
Now, there are cost caveats, training etc. But the concept should be there.
When the powers feel like they should be together, I am just putting them in the same group, or tree so to speak. The pre-requisites (by raw) are just the first tier abilities in the power tree.
| Quote: | | It's also worth considering which low-level powers should be tied to the base skills. |
I have been thinking this - like a free base power associated with something - that might be passive - as the characters were not in an active state of heightened awareness.
Sense is the most obvious (I was thinking something simple - like a +1 bonus to perception skills for each 1D Rank in Sense).
That is if your sense rank is 2D you get a passive +2 to all PER skills.
Or sense force or Danger sense might just have passive abilities - included when you buy them.
Don't know - have not refined it yet.
Still mulling that part over. I am sure the pit will give me some ideas... 
Oh, and back to Fatigue....
Here is my draft on fatigue;
* Players have a fatigue condition, measure in pips.
* Certain strenuous actions give pips (like carrying very heavy objects etc.).
* Combat gives 1pip per min.
* A mishap on a force power gives 1 pip. (maybe....).
* Pushing a force power above your ability gives pips (char points)
* Maintaining some force powers gives pips.
** Move object 1 pip per round based on size above skill rank.
** Battle meditation 1 pip per time period.
** Force of will, enhance attribute etc.
When ever the Fatigue pips hit a die code (i.e. every 3 pips) a stamina check is made - if higher - then no problem. If fails, take die code in penalty.
Resting for x time periods reduce pips.
This is all in draft.....
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Advanced Force Skill: RESTORE. |
As an alternative suggestion that brings this more in line with the RAW, it is possible to have Specialization of Advanced Skills. You could have Restore be the Advanced Skill, with Control Disease, Remove Fatigue, etc, be Specializations of it.
Also, since you're doing this as part of your larger house rule, I'm going to do a write-up of Force Powers as Advanced Skills, but keeping the existing powers.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | CRMcNeill said:
As an alternative suggestion that brings this more in line with the RAW, it is possible to have Specialization of Advanced Skills. You could have Restore be the Advanced Skill, with Control Disease, Remove Fatigue, etc, be Specializations of it.
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That is a pretty good idea. Hmmmm.....
Might confuse the players - but I have to consider it.
| Quote: | CRMcNeill said
Also, since you're doing this as part of your larger house rule, I'm going to do a write-up of Force Powers as Advanced Skills, but keeping the existing powers. |
Actually, what you are suggesting is the best best path - and less time consuming and balance altering.
I like my grand plan ....but it may be too much at one time.
You have convinced me to just convert to advanced skills (and single skill roll). Then I will take a look and go from there.
Looking forward to seeing your version.
(now, to figure out how to best work in fatigue ....).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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The more I think about, the more I'm becoming in favor of not allowing characters to automatically acquire new powers when they level up their Force skills. I'm okay with PCs starting out with a dozen or so, but viewed in the context of the larger game, it provides a much-needed leveling effect.
What I mean is, by implementing a Force Attribute, it gives starting Jedi PCs an important bump in their ability to use the Force from the get-go. However, one of the biggest complaints about the system is how rapidly Jedi outclass their fellow PCs once the CP race hits its stride. However, if you make Jedi choose between spending CP to improve their Force skills and spending CP to learn new powers (in the form of Advanced Skills), it very much waters down the relative efficacy of CPs for Jedi characters by spreading them thinner than it would under the RAW.
The end result for Force-using characters is that they start off with their Force skills in the much more usable 3D-5D range, with a slate of useful powers, but they have to work a lot harder to improve and expand it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | I like my grand plan ....but it may be too much at one time. |
I think it's still worth doing, even if just to see how the two balance out. I'm partial to going straight Advanced skills in order to keep the CP cost curve steep for Jedi PCs, but I'm also intrigued by the character customization options available for characters who uses Advanced Specializations to focus on specific power usage fields.
Anyway, I went ahead and posted my RAW ~compliant version.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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