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Kira Run – how to deal with conflicting sources?
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jamz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject: Kira Run – how to deal with conflicting sources? Reply with quote

I recently compared the map from Twin Stars of Kira to what we see in the essential atlas, and there is a big difference.

WEG:https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/e2/Twin_Stars_of_Kira_Chart.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/706?cb=20070506064226

Essential Atlas: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/ee/Kira_sector.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20200425082408

In the now official maps Aargaw and Pax are connected via the Hydian Way. This is not the case in the WEG-map, and it makes the Kira Run obsolete. Originally the Kira Run was a relatively new development and it connected two hyperlanes. Now with the Hydian Way in the direct neighbourhood there would be no need, as nothing is faster than travelling on a super-hyperlane. The distance is so short, it might be even some minutes per Hydian Way.

How to deal with it?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I photoshopped the WEG map to account for the update of the Essential Atlas, maintaining as much of the original intention of the travel considerations as possible. I'm trying to access the file but not able to at the moment. I will try share it somehow once I can access.
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jamz
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a little background to this problem:

Recently CRMcNeill thankfully posted Daniel Strains Galaxy Map in this thread https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8494. I am right now compiling rules and background material for playing trampfreighter spacers, and this map is one of the assets I use. Now I wanted to see how it works to play around with Strains map, to transfer WEG maps to it and see how everything fits.
Especially the hyperroute speed ratings are one point I feel I will have to adjust somehow (towards slower journeys, but not too slow that you couldn't sit in your X-Wing seat while travelling through the galaxy – or maybe I need much more little Space Station Motels?).
From my recent posts you can see I want to define the "galactic spacing community" a little bit more, not just the political galactic public, but the exotic travellers civilizations. The ones who give flavor and color to the setting, too.

The map of the Kira Run was my first attempt to merge the abovementioned sources and also to get a feeling for the Iskalloni in the galaxy. So I made a custom template for creating scenario maps and based on the essential atlas and Strains map, I made a map, too. Compared to the WEG map it preserves the proportions and distances of the systems:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5bd9lvlf1onsog/Kira%20Run.jpg?dl=0

I added Malastare and Naboo, just because they are so important planets.
As this all is based on Strains Galaxy Map for RPG usage, the hexagon in which Seltos is located is Wild Space – it has been mapped once, but astrogation data is insufficient for safe and fast travel. Strain seems to have placed those in empty spaces on the map between the major and popular hyperlanes. I wanted to give each of these regions a name and in this case I called it the Mulgard Space Anomalies.

One thing I am not sure yet is whether I will keep the speed rates that Strain assumes in his map. In the Kira Run map this would affect the travel time of the Hydian Way passages. Right now Strain postulates a speed of 6 minutes to cross a hex's distance of the Hydian Way – in the end they are rounded up to one hour.

The main problem still is: Using the Kira Run from Lazerian to Ropagi takes 2 hours. Making the detour via the Hydian Way, from Lazerian to Arrgaw, Pax and then to Ropagi takes 3 days and 11 hours, which is in the scale of travelling between two neighbouring systems in the Kira Run map. This considerably scales down the urgency to connect the Enarc Run to the Harrin Corridor. The background of the Kira Run must be altered too:

Quote:
Attempts have been made in the past to bridge the expanse between the overlapping lengths of the Harrin Corridor and the Enarc Run, but all failed to find a safe and reliable passage linking the two. The paucity of star systems between the two routes coupled with the high degree of deep soace hazards led to the failure of previous expeditions. That is, until an enterprising team of free-traders uncovered the references to Kira Prime. The discovery of a system––even if it were a dead system––in the are between the two routes was the breakthrough that was needed. Realizing that they could use a system with an established location as a stopover point and nivigational reference, the Haik expedition set out from Ropagi to plot a new hyperspace route. The attempt succeeded. Taking a bearing from Kira, the adventurers were able to plot a safe course to Ropagi in the Enarc Run. As more passages were made, the way became easier. As the hyperspace path was further explored and refined, reliable travel became possible. … Soon, what began as a minor shuttling operation turned into an indispensable link in galactic trade––the Kira Run.


and

Quote:
While the route through Kira is now well-established and relatively smooth to run, there is still an occasional hyperspace hazard. The massive asteroid field of Kira Prime is not stable … At the very least, [a] ship's mass sensors may trigger the hyperdrive cut-out, forcing the ship into realspace and damaging the engines. Because of these dangers, the astrogation standard journey difficulty is Moderate.


Then we have another problem: The hyperroute to Iskallon and the Iskalloni – Star Wars' counterpart to Star Treks Borg – is off. The Iskalloni home planet of Iskadrell is located in "unknown regions" – not necessarily THE "Unknown Regions" of the western galactic plane. But this suggests a shorter distance as travel is seriously hindered in an unknown region. But it all depends on the hyperroute data. While the route to Iskadrell is a hidden route, it could be a very fast route relatively to its distance. Now the map of Twin Stars of Kira sets the travel time to 13 days. This is in the scale of the journey from Nigel to Kalinda, or Kalinda to Enarc, Krann to Merren and about half the time of Lahopa to Harrin. The first two routes we have in the map – they are not too long.
So we have a secret and very special route to Iskadrell. Now let's look into the essential atlas to see where they place Iskadrell. It is way back in the Unknown Regions – with capital letters: in the galactic south-west. The Kira Run is in south-south-east. And the distance between Iskadrell and my map is over 2.5 additional maps of the same size.

The main problem I think is still the relevancy of the Kira Run when it is placed next to a Super-Hyperroute.
One solution is to change the placement of the Kira Run entirely nearer to the west and farther away from a Super-Hyperroute. But it and its planets are ingrained into the essential map.

Another solution is to assume a specific scenario to use with the setting of Twin Stars of Kira where the Hydian Way is temporarily not usable. Maybe because of political turbulences right after the battle of endor, the fall of the Empire and the invasion of the Nagai and Tof. This could be a scenario for the Iskalloni to risk an invasion, too.

Still another way maybe is to adjust the hyperroute travel speeds. Right now with the Hydian Way next to it the Kira Run is favourable if it is used when travelling from the galactic east of Enarc Run and Harrin Corridor.

Regarding the problem with the secret route to Iskadrell, the planet could be placed lead into the Wild Space hexagon of the Mulgard Space Anomalies. It would be mapped, but with small pockets still being "unknown regions". Alternatively it could be a colony of the Iskadrells. This has some advantages: first, we can let the Iskadrells be a known, even if not well-known, civilization in the galaxy, but the colony may be unknown and a staging point for Iskadrell operations in the galaxy. I personally like this more (and I would treat Nagai, Tofs and other species as not completely unknown too). There could even be a hidden route between the colony and Iskadrell, or other colonies. Maybe, these hidden and fast routes are one asset of the Iskalloni. Currently they are described with some little advantages – being more resistant to blaster weapons – but with severe disadvantages because of the dangerous byproducts of their alien Bio- and Cyborg-Tech. The Iskalloni may even be one reason for some of the smaller Wild space regions in the map of Daniel Strain. These regions would be like bermuda triangles where ships have been going missing for thousands of years. This would be because of the Iskalloni's need to get slave for operating their dangerous technology or removing its by-products. (But then we have to find a reason why they are not using droids for this work. And why not because the Iskalloni are in fact droids? They are embedded in the kybernetic implants, which they use to possess organic beings, so that they can enjoy sensations, organic intelligence, personalties.)
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jamz
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know how travel times were treated generally? The were reset from days to hours earyl on, but then we have a map like here with explicitly stated days of travel time. Is this supposed to be treated like hours?

If this remains days, I can only see it work if the whole sectors of the Kira Run map are in a giant nebula or other hyperspace disturbance.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was never anything specific, but the impression I always got was that it would take weeks or months to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other (Admiral Piett's ESB hyperbole notwithstanding). The new canon turned all that upside down. A lot of what we see in the prequels could be argued as still fitting the longer-trip-time model, but the Disney trilogy took a flamethrower to that, and then doubled-down on it by deliberately placing locations on the map in such a way that pretty much any point in the galaxy is reachable in matter of hours.

Now, I can accept a hybrid version that resembles an interstate highway map, where extremely rapid travel is possible along certain routes, but slows drastically once you get "off the interstate", but a general system where any point in the galaxy is reachable in a matter of hours renders an armed rebel force untenable due to reduced reaction times. The Empire's sheer size allows it to focus overwhelming military power on any given point. If it can do this and have that force anywhere in the galaxy inside of a day, the Alliance can't operate off surface bases because there won't be enough time to load the transports and evacuate before there are a hundred star destroyers and a Sector Army in orbit. The only way it works is if the Empire has to scatter its forces in small groups across the galaxy, in such a way that said groups can't immediately support one another.
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jamz
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I totally agree. It could work for the films, but the feeling for the scale and geography of the galaxy diminishes, if travel is too fast. It even happens with the super fast hyperroutes. The original idea of days instead hours for the Gazetteer was not so bad. But there is the other problem: if it takes many days to travel then you cannot travel in a single seated fighter, what Luke clearly does. (But he is a Jedi too, and could hibernate for several days.)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. Hibernation sleep also covers the Jedi using single-seat starfighters as regular transport in the prequels. Based on the limitations of both their consumables and navcomputers, starfighters are most likely just supposed to be tactically and operationally mobile within a sector or neighboring sectors (depending on local astrography), not on a trans-galactic level. Anything beyond that requires either a planetary base or a carrier.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh that's interesting. Is there a rule somewhere for the restricted operational range of starfighters? I think most players wouldn't play it like this. But with the original table and hyperspace travel taking days, it would have worked only this way.

On the other hand, the rebel starfighters jump with the fleet to Endor. But maybe this was from not too far away and to arrive in attack position.

Another way to make starfighters more dependent is to make it necessary for them to land in starports more frequently than light freighters.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamz wrote:
Oh that's interesting. Is there a rule somewhere for the restricted operational range of starfighters? I think most players wouldn't play it like this. But with the original table and hyperspace travel taking days, it would have worked only this way.

No actual rule, but it is implied by their Consumables rating and the limits on their Navcomputers.

Quote:
On the other hand, the rebel starfighters jump with the fleet to Endor. But maybe this was from not too far away and to arrive in attack position.

My current working theory is that the Rebel fleet jumped from Sullust to a rendezvous point several light years away from Endor and deployed their fighters there, then made a combat jump the rest of the way in.

Quote:
Another way to make starfighters more dependent is to make it necessary for them to land in starports more frequently than light freighters.

I have a mostly complete house rule that gives ships Endurance Dice in place of Consumables. The rule is structured to treat the need to refuel more cinematically, in the sense that all of the math and dice rolling happens between games, with the results table geared more toward helping the GM plan the next game session around whether or not the ship needs to be replenished.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I have a mostly complete house rule that gives ships Endurance Dice in place of Consumables. The rule is structured to treat the need to refuel more cinematically, in the sense that all of the math and dice rolling happens between games, with the results table geared more toward helping the GM plan the next game session around whether or not the ship needs to be replenished.


Did you publish them here anywhere? I would be interested in these rules.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamz wrote:
Did you publish them here anywhere? I would be interested in these rules.

Most things I have are in the Index topic linked in my signature, but for the sake of brevity, here's the direct link.
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