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TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Whill wrote:
https://twitter.com/Pippi88J/status/1448825403762749443/photo/1

Check out that image of a deleted tweet on an official Disney account. The red flag thing is a "red flag" warning trend going on right now. In case no hablas espanol, it means, "The final Star Wars trilogy is the best." So the joke is that anyone saying that should be a red flag about the person. It was retweeted 20,000 times before it was deleted. Hilarious.

I'd agree with this employee who tweeted this: presumably this came after they'd already handed in their resignation. I am immediately wary of the opinions of anyone doesn't view the original trilogy as the best. They've probably got the artistic palate of a kindergartner.

OK, I guess I kinda opened the door to this by sharing a joke some Disney employee made about fans who may think that the DT is the best. And while I am sure the OT is considered the favorite by the majority of Pit members, this tweet didn't say anything about fans of the PT but your comment comparing anyone who doesn't share your exact opinion on trilogies to kindergartners is a bit much. I know you are not insulting anyone directly in this this thread, but still, ouch dude.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Now, the films (or other art) I view as "best" is not necessarily the same as what I like the most. Similarly should be able to accept that by pretty much any metric (accessibility, gas mileage, safety, etc) classic cars are terrible automobiles, but one can also very easily accept someone LIKING them a great deal.

For that matter I can accept that kale is a superior part of the diet to Coca-Cola but guess which one I LIKE better?

Great point, and I can come at it from multiple angles. There are several ways the PT is superior to the CT, but the nostalgia factor, and my love for this game, puts the CT at the top. On the other hand, I have watched the CT well over 100 times in my life so I generally have a greater desire to watch TPM or RotS than I do the CT.

I created a poll about favorite trilogy.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
The saga continuation we have been given with the sequal trillogy I was wondering after basically forcing my self to watch it again if maybe the story is not all that bad, if we had four or five movies and not three.

I really don't see tfa as a disaster, it could have been better naturally but if we had a movie in between that and the last jedi, and then a movie between tlj and rise of skywalker, allowing more of "missing" story elements to have been told, could this to a larger degree have saved the squals?

Four or five movies? I think this is the first time I have encountered the opinion that the DT should have been longer. Very interesting.

TFA is not a bad movie on its own, but it's an obvious rehash of ANH, so it doesn't belongs in the same continuity as the Lucas saga. So the only other movie that feels like it could possibly even take place in the same universe as TFA is TLJ. TRoS doesn't take place in the same universe as any other films, so there just isn't even a coherent trilogy here. I suggest rewatching the DT as individual adventures (not as a trilogy) to maximize enjoyment.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://deadline.com/2021/10/saturn-awards-winners-2021-full-list-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood-knives-out-star-trek-1234863222/

TRoS just nabbed five Saturn Awards! (Eligibly period July 15, 2019-November 15, 2020)

Quote:
Best Science Fiction Film
Best Director (J.J. Abrams)
Best Music (John Williams)
Best Make-Up
Best Special Effects

I can see the bottom three maybe, but the top two tell me it was a pretty crappy 16 months of sci-fi. In other Star Wars award news...

Quote:
Best Presentation on Television (Under 10 Episodes)
The Mandalorian

Best Animated TV Series
Star Wars: The Clone Wars

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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: TRoS Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't buy the Best Picture or Best Director at ALL.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:08 am    Post subject: Pablo Hidalgo's deleted tweets Reply with quote

Star Wars executive says creative disagreements led to an "unsatisfying" scene in The Force Awakens

Twitter archive

So in a series of tweets I saw on Twitter before they were deleted, Star Wars Story Group executive and author Pablo Hidalgo revealed that Bad Robot (JJ Abrams) wanted to destroy Coruscant but Lucasfilm argued against that until the compromise of fake Coruscant Hosnian Prime was arrived at. Hidalgo cracked on Jakku and Pasaana being fake Tatooines. He also said it would have been better without Starkiller at all. And he called the phenomenon that made Hosnian Prime's destruction visible on Takodana "some weird hand-wavy hyperspace rip."

I imagine that there must be someone in a PR position at Lucasfilm whose job it is just to follow the twitter accounts of everyone who works there and get them to delete tweets when they reveal too much, lol.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Increasingly to me, the 9 films seem to me like they came from 9 alternate earth's. Or different civilizations re-interpretations of them.

Or like we're archeologists who have episodes one through nine... of a 9 episode ancient Greek play cycle... but like, Episode one is an early era Roman adaption, Episode two is a late Roman adaption, Episode three IS Greek but it's a surviving version that was performed in medieval Greece... etc. etc.

Someday I want to teach an Intro to Historic Methodology class and give everyone a box of Star Wars merchandise and tell them to try to reconstruct the story told by the films.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
I don't have to imagine.

Think of feeling this way since 1977? Or '79? Or '83?


You disliked ANH when it came out in 1977? And felt hugely disappointed that it had missed the opportunity to continue something you loved?
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Pablo Hidalgo's deleted tweets Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

So in a series of tweets I saw on Twitter before they were deleted, Star Wars Story Group executive and author Pablo Hidalgo revealed that Bad Robot (JJ Abrams) wanted to destroy Coruscant but Lucasfilm argued against that until the compromise of fake Coruscant Hosnian Prime was arrived at. Hidalgo cracked on Jakku and Pasaana being fake Tatooines. He also said it would have been better without Starkiller at all. And he called the phenomenon that made Hosnian Prime's destruction visible on Takodana "some weird hand-wavy hyperspace rip."



Without spilling too much ink on films I don't like, Abrams' hiring was probably the single worst incident in the history of Star Wars.

The second worst single incident is probably when Hasbro screwed up the licensing deal. Though the longterm ramifications for that may have been even greater than hiring Abrams.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Pablo Hidalgo's deleted tweets Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Abrams' hiring was probably the single worst incident in the history of Star Wars.

TFA box office alone would refute that, but from a subjective artistic perspective, we have no basis for comparison. Remember, it is not like there had a list of people competing for the job and they choose JJ Abrams. They had no takers. Abrams rejected the offer. Ron Howard rejected the offer. We don't even know who all rejected the offer, but no one wanted the responsibility of relaunching the film franchise. They had to come back to Abrams after a bunch of rejections, and beg and plead to finally get him to do it. If it wasn't Abrams, there would have been no one to kick off new films. Unless you are saying that having no new Star Wars movies would have been better than the five we got. I'm glad we got Rogue One and Solo out of the deal.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Pablo Hidalgo's deleted tweets Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
TauntaunScout wrote:
Abrams' hiring was probably the single worst incident in the history of Star Wars.

TFA box office alone would refute that, but from a subjective artistic perspective, we have no basis for comparison. Remember, it is not like there had a list of people competing for the job and they choose JJ Abrams. They had no takers. Abrams rejected the offer. Ron Howard rejected the offer. We don't even know who all rejected the offer, but no one wanted the responsibility of relaunching the film franchise. They had to come back to Abrams after a bunch of rejections, and beg and plead to finally get him to do it. If it wasn't Abrams, there would have been no one to kick off new films. Unless you are saying that having no new Star Wars movies would have been better than the five we got. I'm glad we got Rogue One and Solo out of the deal.



They could've got someone. ROTJ was directed by an relative unknown. Maybe the corporate machine wasn't capable of thinking outside the quarterly bonus structure and getting someone. It's impossible to believe that plenty of directors would've killed for the chance. But Disney wouldn't give just anyone a chance. I'm betting they didn't offer it to the likes of Favreau and Filoni. And it never ceases to annoy me that Howard's daughter jumped on the Mandalorian crew, in light of him turning down the sequels. She woulda been a fine choice compared to Abrams. Then again so would you. So would I. We would've approached it with love and humility and instead of patronizing hubris.

In my view Abrams did way more longterm harm to the franchise within our culture, than any one other person or event. Shorterm profits notwithstanding. Box office receipts mean little to me regarding the quality of a film itself for a few reasons. In the case of a SW film, because we HAVE to see it. Are we REALLY gonna skip it based on trailers? Heck no. This was the most awaited film sequel yet made.

And some films that set records don't hold up too great to the test of time. I don't think much of Titanic, Avatar, or Gone with the Wind. Plenty of very good films do poorly at the box office, too.

To me, when debating the actual film in and of itself, the financial success or failure of a film only serves as a source of confirmation bias. However if we want to use Abram's receipts for The Force Awakens, we also have to take into account how The Rise of Skywalker was a financial disappointment. Besides, the failure of these movies to make a cultural impact had huge financial implications for merchandising.

I actually LIKE the sequels, relative to most Star Wars fans. I think they're about twice as good as the prequels: taking the sins of all 6 on balance, acting and visuals bring the sequels to the front of that pack in my book. But there's an awful lot wrong with them, they harmed the franchise, and at the end of the day the flawed nature of the ST, I think, can be attributed to Abrams.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Whill wrote:
TauntaunScout wrote:
Abrams' hiring was probably the single worst incident in the history of Star Wars.

TFA box office alone would refute that, but from a subjective artistic perspective, we have no basis for comparison. Remember, it is not like there had a list of people competing for the job and they choose JJ Abrams. They had no takers. Abrams rejected the offer. Ron Howard rejected the offer. We don't even know who all rejected the offer, but no one wanted the responsibility of relaunching the film franchise. They had to come back to Abrams after a bunch of rejections, and beg and plead to finally get him to do it. If it wasn't Abrams, there would have been no one to kick off new films. Unless you are saying that having no new Star Wars movies would have been better than the five we got. I'm glad we got Rogue One and Solo out of the deal.

They could've got someone. ROTJ was directed by an relative unknown. Maybe the corporate machine wasn't capable of thinking outside the quarterly bonus structure and getting someone. It's impossible to believe that plenty of directors would've killed for the chance. But Disney wouldn't give just anyone a chance. I'm betting they didn't offer it to the likes of Favreau and Filoni. And it never ceases to annoy me that Howard's daughter jumped on the Mandalorian crew, in light of him turning down the sequels. She woulda been a fine choice compared to Abrams. Then again so would you. So would I. We would've approached it with love and humility and instead of patronizing hubris.

In my view Abrams did way more longterm harm to the franchise within our culture, than any one other person or event. Shorterm profits notwithstanding. Box office receipts mean little to me regarding the quality of a film itself for a few reasons. In the case of a SW film, because we HAVE to see it. Are we REALLY gonna skip it based on trailers? Heck no. This was the most awaited film sequel yet made.

And some films that set records don't hold up too great to the test of time. I don't think much of Titanic, Avatar, or Gone with the Wind. Plenty of very good films do poorly at the box office, too.

To me, when debating the actual film in and of itself, the financial success or failure of a film only serves as a source of confirmation bias. However if we want to use Abram's receipts for The Force Awakens, we also have to take into account how The Rise of Skywalker was a financial disappointment. Besides, the failure of these movies to make a cultural impact had huge financial implications for merchandising.

I actually LIKE the sequels, relative to most Star Wars fans. I think they're about twice as good as the prequels: taking the sins of all 6 on balance, acting and visuals bring the sequels to the front of that pack in my book. But there's an awful lot wrong with them, they harmed the franchise, and at the end of the day the flawed nature of the ST, I think, can be attributed to Abrams.


Yes, they could have got someone else eventually, but that would not have been on Disney's schedule and that would be settling for someone of a lower reputation. Disney was very insistent that Episode VII come out in 2015, and the only way to get Abrams to agree to making the film was to move it back from May to December. Kennedy wouldn't have gotten a nobody because if it failed she would be blamed for hiring a nobody. (In getting Abrams, if it failed then she could say it wasn't her fault because she did her job by getting him). Ron Howard said no and no one knew his daughter could direct back then. RotJ's director had Lucas backseat-directing the film, and that film wasn't relaunching a multi-billion dollar franchise. So Disney didn't want to wait and it had to be someone big, so it literally was only Abrams. And thus, there is no one else to compare it too. And this is all moot anyway because we only have fan speculation for how someone else could have done.

Factually, TRoS's box office is only considered a "disappointment" to those with extremely greedy expectations (like Disney). It grossed over $1 billion, and all investors made a handsome profit. But of course, it didn't make as much as TFA or even TLJ. You are referring to the "disappointment" of millionaires getting richer but not by as much as they wished.

But please, do not act like I was citing TFA's box office as validation of my personal opinion of TFA's greatness. If you really think I feel any way like that, you need to reread this thread. To quote Yoda, "Box office not make one great." And I don't think TFA, or the DT was great. TFA was enjoyable as a reboot of my fave SW film, but even that experience wore down with repeat viewings. TLJ was a cinematographically beautiful but overall boring left turn, and TRoS was fleet of death star destroyers harmlessly crashing to the ground of a Sith cult planet. IMO.

You said, and I quote, "Abrams' hiring was probably the single worst incident in the history of Star Wars." When you say, "the history of Star Wars", that doesn't at all sound like you are talking about the quality of a film itself to you, like you just said above. History very much so looks at box office. Your personal estimation of the quality of the film is not at all historical (at least not yet–maybe you will be famous someday). So now I get it that you were really just using hyperbole to describe about your personal opinion of Abrams and the film. My above post was responding to that statement literally.

And I do not disagree wit the general statement that Abrams is to blame for a lot what's wrong with the DT.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

And I do not disagree wit the general statement that Abrams is to blame for a lot what's wrong with the DT.


He is to blame for most of what's wrong, and the repercussions for the franchise are/were huge. Worse things have happened but I can't think of any that I can lay so squarely on one man's shoulders. Here's a metaphor for my position: The other bad things to happen to the franchise were 100 house fires, started individually by assorted causes. Abrams was one leaking gas main that blew up 25 houses in one incident.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:59 pm    Post subject: Disney's Anti-Trilogy Reply with quote

Quote:
TPM: A children's fantasy
AotC: A noir-ish political mystery
RotS: An apocalyptic opera
ANH: A serial adventure
TESB: A dreamlike tragedy
RotJ: A classic morality play

In trying to make the Disney Trio into "The Antidote Trilogy" they made the "The Anti-Trilogy"

Video: The Star Wars Sequels: Disney's Anti-Trilogy

Quote:
The Force Awakens
Anti-Prequel –> Anti-Lucas –> Anti-Star Wars

The Last Jedi
Anti-Force Awakens / Anti-Nostalgia / Anti-Everything –> Anti-Star Wars

The Rise of Skywalker
Anti-Narrative / Anti-Climactic / Anti-Movie –> Anti-Star Wars


This 25-minute video was pointed out to me by a Pit user offline. This really articulates some of my feelings about the DT and points I've tried to make about it (not nearly as succinctly).

If anything written above seems like an oversimplification, that's because it is. If you feel triggered please watch the entire video before replying to this post. If you still disagree with anything in the video after watching it, please feel free to share your views.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just watched this this evening, before seeing your post.

He's pretty much spot on.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JJ Abrams has such a smarmy, punchable face. Frig, he's annoying.

It's pretty rich to hear him say things like "telling this story". There is no STORY. That's kinda the core problem with both new-fangled trilogies.

The OT is the "heroes journey" as has been said a million times. The PT was at least supposed to be a Greek tragedy, so to speak. But I have no idea what the ST is supposed to be, storywise. Like seriously what is it? Anyone have a good theory? My googling hasn't turned up much. How dare he say "telling this story"?

The sequels have sadly lived up to the early criticisms of Star Wars. They're just really long commercials.

I guess I'm safe as long as they don't release a 1" gaming miniatures line of the ST. To me Star Wars was always more about toys Smile
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