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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: |
Why not speeders? Because, well, speeders can't be built big enough to do the job walkers/ground vehicles can do. Also, speeders don't work in every environment, be it because of the temperature (Hoth) or because of gravitational irregularities (Imperial Sourcebook.).
Also, they're cool. |
Plus repulsors/hovers, have more of a power consumption than running wheels/feet...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | | Why not speeders? Because, well, speeders can't be built big enough to do the job walkers/ground vehicles can do. Also, speeders don't work in every environment, be it because of the temperature (Hoth) or because of gravitational irregularities (Imperial Sourcebook.). |
| garhkal wrote: | | Plus repulsors/hovers, have more of a power consumption than running wheels/feet... |
I think g's closer to the mark here, Ray. We see in Solo that repulsorlifts (speeders) work just fine to allow something the size of an ISD to hover over a city. Or from RotS where a Venator is able to land and take off from a planet-side dock. Repulsorlifts don't have a clear size limit, so it's likely there are other factors involved.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It's perfectly feasible to have vehicles with similar characteristics and different sizes, but less so to have one be an effective carbon copy of the other, just doubled in all dimensions (as is the case with the WEG Juggernaut and the RotS Juggernaut). |
As is not the case with the RotS and RO juggernauts. Look again and compare.
* RotS Vehicle *
vs
I mean really compare them. The RO vehicle is clearly not a "carbon copy" of the prior film vehicle with a reduced scale. They share the concept of 10-wheel/5-axle and two main compartments, one smaller than the other. That's literally it! From the concept art for RO it seems that they started out much more similar, but the actual model used in RO turned out much different. They don't only have different attachments and protrusions. The Rogue One vehicle's compartments are differently shaped and much more blocky-looking (which makes some sense for a smaller vehicle). The RotS vehicle's wheels are all the same size, while the front and back axles of the RO vehicle have smaller (diameter) wheels than the other three axles. Also, the RO vehicle's wheels are thinner (logical for a smaller vehicle). And the wheels of the RO vehicle are relatively father apart, and the part of the vehicle in between the wheels comes relatively closer to the ground on the RO vehicle. There are many differences other than scale. Why refuse to notice these differences and insist on something that is not factually correct? There's no logic in that.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:32 am Post subject: |
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While things like wheels and external equipment can be swapped out without changing the basic vehicle model, I can concede that the main body of the Rogue One vehicle has noticeably more sloped sides to the body than does the RotS one. I wish this did something other than reenforce my opinion on the laziness of Lucasfilm vehicle design for both versions. For example, the suspension on both vehicles is optimized to absorb impacts from rough terrain while traveling in one direction, the opposite one both are seen to be traveling.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:31 am Post subject: |
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So, after a discussion of the visible details over on the Fractalsponge Discord, I've seen proof that Fractal's version of the -A6 is much larger than the version seen in Rogue One. If we assume that the door on the rear of the Rogue One version is human-sized (~2 meters), here is how much bigger Fractal's is, with a stormtrooper for scale.
I also pointed out my issue with the suspension, and there was a brief discussion that it would be relatively easy to include a system that shifts the suspension so that it's angled in the opposite direction, depending on which direction it's going to go.
I'm also going to do a major upgrade of the -A6's weaponry, since Lucasfilm actually gave it less firepower than the -A5, despite increasing its mass ten-fold. The -A5 will retain its three heavy lasers and medium blaster cannon, but will also add a pair of dual heavy repeating blasters for anti-personnel work (I may keep the grenade launchers, but I haven't decided yet). The -A6 will keep its rotary heavy blaster cannon, but the heavy dorsal laser cannon will become a dorsal turbolaser, augmented by a pair of warhead launch clusters and six dual heavy repeating blaster cannon.
So, in answer to my OP, I see room for two (plus one) different models of the Juggernaut:-The -A5 will adhere mostly to the WEG stats as written, with the Rogue One version being a military surplus version sold off to mercenary units and security forces (like the kind you might find at a prison).
-The -A6 will be a greatly expanded version, with much heavier weaponry, as depicted in RotS.
-The cargo carrier version seen in the Mandalorian will be a familial relation, but is designated as a HCVw-A9 (or Heavy Cargo Vehicle, Wheeled), not a HAVw (Heavy Assault Vehicle, Wheeled). While it will share similar traits, it will not be called a Juggernaut. Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Thoughts? |
Sounds like a plan.
| Quote: | | So, after a discussion of the visible details over on the Fractalsponge Discord, I've seen proof that Fractal's version of the -A6 is much larger than the version seen in Rogue One. If we assume that the door on the rear of the Rogue One version is human-sized (~2 meters), here is how much bigger Fractal's is, with a stormtrooper for scale |
I never thought there was any confusion or disagreement over the size of the RO version. No one here indicated that it was the same size as the RotS version. Everyone I have heard from knows that the RO version is smaller. And we don't have to assume anything. There is filmic evidence of the scale of the RO version because it shows Jyn going out the rear door, it shows Jyn and K2 outside the door and there is a rear wheel visible for scale. The RO vehicle is clearly smaller than the RotS vehicle. I'll have to go read the Fractal discussion to see what all the size confusion was about.
| Quote: | | -The -A5 will adhere mostly to the WEG stats as written, with the Rogue One version being a military surplus version sold off to mercenary units and security forces (like the kind you might find at a prison). |
The stats strategy makes sense, but a factual FYI is that the prison in RO was not a private or local prison. It was an Imperial prison and labor camp with Imperial stormtroopers on board. But I see no reason why the Empire might keep some of their surplus for their own prisons as well as selling some off.
| Quote: | | -The cargo carrier version seen in the Mandalorian will be a familial relation, but is designated as a HCVw-A9 (or Heavy Cargo Vehicle, Wheeled), not a HAVw (Heavy Assault Vehicle, Wheeled). While it will share similar traits, it will not be called a Juggernaut. |
Logical.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | No one here indicated that it was the same size as the RotS version. |
But that's not what I said. I said I saw proof that Fractal's version was much larger. If you click the link I provided, you can see how much more massive it is. I wasn't debating the fact that they were different sizes.
| Quote: | | I'll have to go read the Fractal discussion to see what all the size confusion was about. |
The discussion was on Fractal's Discord group, which is only visible to members. There wasn't really a size confusion; more that nobody had really taken a close enough look at the stills from Rogue One to see the obvious differences.
| Quote: | | The stats strategy makes sense, but a factual FYI is that the prison in RO was not a private or local prison. |
That's fine. Prisons have security forces, too, and they aren't going to be equipped with front-line military equipment, especially not for on-site prisoner transport. This fits with the existing background for the -A5, with the only twist being the addition of demilitarized versions that strip off some of the weapons (so as to accommodate the reduced loadout on the Rogue One version).
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | So, after a discussion of the visible details over on the Fractalsponge Discord, I've seen proof that Fractal's version of the -A6 is much larger than the version seen in Rogue One. If we assume that the door on the rear of the Rogue One version is human-sized (~2 meters), here is how much bigger Fractal's is, with a stormtrooper for scale. |
| Whill wrote: | | ...No one here indicated that it was the same size as the RotS version.... |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But that's not what I said. I said I saw proof that Fractal's version was much larger. If you click the link I provided, you can see how much more massive it is. I wasn't debating the fact that they were different sizes. |
I did click the link. It's cool. You said, and I quote, "I've seen proof." That is a conclusive-sounding statement which strongly implies that there was some confusion, debate, or disagreement. There was no debate or disagreement about that here, where you are typing these posts. You are the OP of this thread and cited Fractal's version from the beginning. It was always clear that Fractal made the RotS vehicle and it was always clear that the RotS version was bigger than the RO vehicle, therefore it was always clear that Fractal's version was bigger than RO. If something is clear and not in dispute, there is really no reason to say "I've seen proof that..." Or is there some other reason you worded it that way which I am completely missing?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There wasn't really a size confusion; more that nobody had really taken a close enough look at the stills from Rogue One to see the obvious differences. |
This is a Rancor Pit thread. *I* took a close look at the stills from RO to see the obvious differences, and I posted that I did here in this thread. I posted stills and videos here in this thread. Are we having the same discussion here? Reread all my posts in this thread if there is any confusion about this discussion.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That's fine. Prisons have security forces, too, and they aren't going to be equipped with front-line military equipment, especially not for on-site prisoner transport. This fits with the existing background for the -A5, with the only twist being the addition of demilitarized versions that strip off some of the weapons (so as to accommodate the reduced loadout on the Rogue One version). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Or is there some other reason you worded it that way which I am completely missing? |
I really think you're reading too much into this. Regardless of my original thoughts, I now agree that there is room for two different sizes of Juggernauts, and the Fractalsponge scale drawing conclusively demonstrates how much larger one is than the other. That's all.
| Quote: | | This is a Rancor Pit thread. *I* took a close look at the stills from RO to see the obvious differences, and I posted that I did here in this thread. I posted stills and videos here in this thread. Are we having the same discussion here? Reread all my posts in this thread if there is any confusion about this discussion. |
You said you were going to read over the Fractalsponge thread to see what the confusion was over the size. In context, I thought you were referring to the recent discussion I had on the Fractalsponge Discord about the respective sizes of the two Juggernauts, and that you had mistakenly thought that the conversation occurred in the comments on Fractalsponge's Gallery site, under one of his Juggernaut Gallery posts, and that you intended to go digging in the comments there for a conversation that wasn't there. I tried to spare you the wasted time by letting you know that the conversation occurred in a private forum, so you wouldn't be able to find it.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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OK. And sorry I didn't thank you in my last reply for pointing out where you had said the other discussion was. I'm not a fan of Discord so I won't bother seeking that convo out.
In this thread here, the fact that the RotS and RO were different sizes was there from the beginning, with your original complaint being that the only difference was a difference in scale. I feel I have clearly demonstrated in this thread that is not the case. When they produced RO, they clearly designed an original vehicle that is only inspired by the RotS vehicle. I have pointed out many specific differences in the two models. I feel like that has largely been ignored in this thread.
Regardless, I very much appreciate you coming to terms with a need for stats for all four vehicles: WEG's original, the RotS/Fractal vehicle, the surplus/prison/merc version of WEG's vehicle in RO, and the non-juggernaut cargo vehicle featured in TM. I'm really looking forward to these stats, and if I can help in any way, even just to bounce problems off of, please let me know. Thanks.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'm not a fan of Discord |
Me either, but most of the in-depth discussion about Fractal's various projects has migrated out of his Gallery comments sections and into the Discord, so if you want sneak peeks and the opportunity to voice your input on Fractal's WIPs, it's the main option.
| Quote: | | I have pointed out many specific differences in the two models. I feel like that has largely been ignored in this thread. |
Which I (begrudgingly, I admit) acknowledged here. If it helps, I used the images you provided in the course of the Fractal Discord conversation, where most involved (including Fractal) said they had never bothered to look that closely at the differences in the R1 version, so you were ahead of the curve on this.
| Quote: | | I'm really looking forward to these stats, and if I can help in any way, even just to bounce problems off of, please let me know. Thanks. |
Any time. The WEG original is already in my stat archive, and the only change I'm considering is subbing out the grenade launchers, either for heavy repeating blasters, or for the mixed turrets (as in, one HRB and one grenade launcher) I've put on some other vehicles. Doing the R1 version will mostly be a matter of stripping out some of the weapon stats and (probably) increasing cargo capacity to compensate. The stats for the -A6 will be going up in the Fractalsponge thread.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Me either, but most of the in-depth discussion about Fractal's various projects has migrated out of his Gallery comments sections and into the Discord, so if you want sneak peeks and the opportunity to voice your input on Fractal's WIPs, it's the main option. |
I'm glad you're there to represent an educated WEG SW point of view.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | I have pointed out many specific differences in the two models. |
Which I (begrudgingly, I admit) acknowledged here. If it helps, I used the images you provided in the course of the Fractal Discord conversation, where most involved (including Fractal) said they had never bothered to look that closely at the differences in the R1 version, so you were ahead of the curve on this. |
That does help me feel better. Thanks. Glad my work here indirectly helped Fractal and the others too.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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So, regarding the stripped version of the A5, the two main things its missing are the side heavy laser turrets and the sensor mast. The mast is easy enough to remove, plus removing all of its internal electronics will make more cargo space. As far as the side cannon, I'm thinking of replacing them with fold-up cargo loading doors that basically take up the entire side panel (to explain why the doors aren't visible on the R1 Juggernaut). That way, it's more of a general purpose transport that can haul cargo and passengers, but without all the cargo having to be hauled by hand through that access door on the back. Of course, the relative loss of structural integrity with the addition of the cargo doors will reduce the Hull, but that will also help explain whatever it was the Alliance used to disable it at the beginning of R1.
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