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Adding Dice Values to Force Powers
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:12 am    Post subject: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

This concept is an evolution of my earlier idea of treating Force Powers like Advanced Skills.

While I liked the way the rules worked, it irritated me that I was making exceptions to the rules for Advanced Skills in order to make the Force Powers usable within the framework of the idea. So, after some consideration, I decided the best way to handle this was to simply re-write the rules for Force Powers by borrowing facets of Advanced Skills, rather than trying to cut off the corners of a square peg in order to shove it through a round hole.

So, here is the modified version of the rule I posted above:
    1) Use the Force Attribute for character generation.

    2) For every full D of Force Attribute, the character may select one Sense Power for which they have a particular aptitude, referred to as a Talent (GMs may allow characters to select Powers other than Sense at their discretion). Untrained Force users (those with dice in the Force Attribute but not Force skills) may roll their Attribute to use their Talent Power, despite being untrained, at +5 Difficulty. All CP costs to learn and improve the Talent Power are reduced by 1/2 (rounded up), and the skill may be used normally (no more +5 penalty) once it has been learned.

    3) On character creation, characters get 1 Force Power per D in a Force skill (including Attributes) at creation.
      For example, a character with 3D Force who puts 2D of their starting Skill Dice in each of the Force Skills (for a total of 5D in Control, Sense and Alter) begins with 15 Force Powers.
    However, a character can not select a Power if they do not improve the Power's Force Skill at least 1 pip above their Force Attribute.
      For example, if a character has a Force Attribute of 2D, but only places 1D in their Sense Skill (and none in Control or Alter), they may not select any Control or Alter based Powers.
    This also affects the number of Powers the character start with, as the Attribute dice only count toward starting Force Powers if the character improves the requisite Skill.
      Using the above example, because the character only has 4D in Sense (Force 3D + 1D Skill Dice), they may only select four starting Powers, and only from the Sense list. However, if the character improved their Control and Alter skills - even if just by a single pip - they would be able to select six additional powers (3 each for Control and Alter, on account of having 3D+1 in both).

    4) All Force Powers now have a Dice Value, beginning at 1D. The Power Dice stacks with the base Force Skill when rolling to activate the Power. For example, if a character has Control 5D and Enhance Attribute 1D, they would roll 6D to bring up Enhance Attribute.

    5) Characters no longer learn Powers for free when increasing their base Force skills, but must instead spend CP to learn new Powers, using the base CP Cost on the following table:
      Power Complexity = Base CP Cost to Learn:
      C, S or A = 3 CP
      C/S, C/A or S/A = 4 CP
      C/S/A = 5 CP
    All CP costs and Training Times are doubled when learning without a teacher.

    6) Powers may be improved individually, with base CP cost modified based on the Power's complexity:
      Power Complexity = Base Dice Modifier:
      C, S or A = Base Dice Number
      C/S, C/A or S/A = Base Dice Number + 1
      C/S/A = Base Dice Number + 2
    For example, if a character wished to improve their Absorb/Dissipate Energy Power from 1D to 1D+1, they would pay double the number in front of the D, or 2CP (assuming they have a teacher). However, a character who wants to improve Affect Mind from 1D to 1D+1, they would take the number in front of the D, add 2 (since Affect Mind is a C/S/A Power) and then double it, for a total of 6 CP.

    7) Required Powers are unchanged, and do not stack with the Dice of other Powers.

    8) Moment of Insight!: Characters may use a Power that they have not learned if they spend a Force Point to activate it, using either the appropriate Force Skills or the Force Attribute (if untrained), at double the dice value, as normal. The character must spend a Force Point if they wish to use the Power again, but may subsequently learn the Power at 1/2 (rounded up) CP Cost and Training Time. Whether or not the Force Point use is considered Heroic is dependent upon the circumstances.
Ultimately, I think this encompasses everything I was trying to do with the Advanced Skill version, without the need to make special exceptions to the rules for Advanced Skills to make it happen.

Thoughts?
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds interesting. May have to give the force attribute rule of yours another look see..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Sounds interesting. May have to give the force attribute rule of yours another look see..

I'm partial to it in the sense that it puts everything under the same basic rule, where Attributes represent all of a character's natural abilities. It allows for a lot more variety in Force Sensitive characters, as opposed to the generic yes/no binary of the RAW.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me see if I can summarize this;

There is a force attribute called force.
There are three force skills under it, Control, Sense, Alter.
Characters learn force powers by improving these (attribute or skill?).

(yes, that is an over simplification a bit)

I like it. Sounds close to your advanced skill version, but with less work.
Also, like how you merged the dice on the powers.

thanks for sharing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Characters learn force powers by improving these (attribute or skill?).

No. Characters may spend CP to improve their Force skills (or Powers they've already learned), or may spend CP to learn new Powers. They do not get free powers simply for improving their Force Skills.

This increases the CP cost slope for Force-using characters, which is part of the intent. One of the most common complaints about the WEG system is how Force users eventually overtake the game at higher levels, as their Force powers begin to overshadow the abilities of their non-FS companions. The introduction of the Force Attribute exacerbates the problem by placing the Force-using characters several rungs up the power ladder (relative to their RAW power level) at the time of creation. Part of what I hoped to do with this rule was to off-set that advantage, so that, with the Force Attribute, Force-using characters would be more useful earlier on in their character life, but would have to pay a higher CP cost to advance beyond that, thus slowing their progression to the point of overshadowing their companions.

Quote:
I like it. Sounds close to your advanced skill version, but with less work.
Also, like how you merged the dice on the powers.

thanks for sharing.

Yes, the Advanced Skill version accomplished what I wanted it to do, but I'm a big fan of consistency, and having one rule that applies to everything, so having to make exceptions to the rules for Advanced Skills didn't sit well with me. Rewriting the Force Powers as a completely new Dice-based value gave me a clean slate where I could pick and choose the appropriate aspects of Attributes, Skills, Advanced Skills and Force Powers to fit with something completely new.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

I like both versions.

CRMcNeill wrote:
This concept is an evolution of my earlier idea of treating Force Powers like Advanced Skills.

While I liked the way the rules worked, it irritated me that I was making exceptions to the rules for Advanced Skills in order to make the Force Powers usable within the framework of the idea. So, after some consideration, I decided the best way to handle this was to simply re-write the rules for Force Powers by borrowing facets of Advanced Skills, rather than trying to cut off the corners of a square peg in order to shove it through a round hole.

So, here is the modified version...

This version really isn't that different, so whether you call Force powers "advanced skills" or not is almost semantics. The main advantage for Force powers being considered advanced skills (as opposed to Force powers with die codes) would be to eliminate a mechanic from the rule set. Adding die codes to Force powers as you have here doesn't eliminate a mechanic but it doesn't add an additional one either (it just changes the existing powers mechanic). This modified version seems truer to your concept so I can understand your choice here.

CRMcNeill wrote:
All Force Powers now have a Dice Value, beginning at 1D. The Power Dice stacks with the base Force Skill when rolling to activate the Power. For example, if a character has Control 5D and Enhance Attribute 1D, they would roll 6D to bring up Enhance Attribute.

Your example Force powers are single skill powers. How does this work for powers with multiple base Force skills? For Affect Mind, does the power's die code get added to the control roll, the sense roll and the alter roll?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I like both versions.
Quote:
This modified version seems truer to your concept so I can understand your choice here.

Thanks. Yes, the difference is mainly personal preference, but this one satisfies certain OCD tendencies I have w/r/t writing house rules.

Quote:
How does this work for powers with multiple base Force skills? For Affect Mind, does the power's die code get added to the control roll, the sense roll and the alter roll?

Yes, which is why it costs more points to learn and improve Affect Mind than it would a single-skill Force Power. The CP costs are the most flexible part of the rule if you think the costs need to be altered. I suppose I could take another page from Advanced Skills and make the cost 2 CP per Force Skill required to learn a Power at 1D. That way, a C, S or A power would cost 2 CP to learn, a C/S, C/A or S/A Power would cost 4 CP and a C/S/A Power would cost 6.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I like both versions... This modified version seems truer to your concept so I can understand your choice here.

Thanks. Yes, the difference is mainly personal preference, but this one satisfies certain OCD tendencies I have w/r/t writing house rules.

I long ago thought of making all Force powers into Force skill specializations, but that quickly became problematic for the same reason all specializations are: raising the base skills don't raise the specializations and CPs are wasted. Some GMs have addressed that issue in general by changing specialization rules so that CPs spent on specializations are recalculated to whatever they would do as if they had originally been spent on the higher base skill value, but that gets a bit crunchy and I rather prefer specializations work like in RAW, as a detergent to over-specializing in normal skills. So for me, skill specializations were out for Force powers. I like the advanced skills idea a lot better...


CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
How does this work for powers with multiple base Force skills? For Affect Mind, does the power's die code get added to the control roll, the sense roll and the alter roll?

Yes, which is why it costs more points to learn and improve Affect Mind than it would a single-skill Force Power. The CP costs are the most flexible part of the rule if you think the costs need to be altered. I suppose I could take another page from Advanced Skills and make the cost 2 CP per Force Skill required to learn a Power at 1D. That way, a C, S or A power would cost 2 CP to learn, a C/S, C/A or S/A Power would cost 4 CP and a C/S/A Power would cost 6.

I think I will use the same basic concept for my game, but Force powers may end up seeming a little closer to advanced skills. I want to maintain the paradigm of control, sense, and alter rolls, so I like the idea of stacking the power's dice with those Force skills.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Thoughts?

Force powers could not only have prerequisite powers, but also certain minimum values in those powers. But of course that would involve updating each power to implement.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
So for me, skill specializations were out for Force powers. I like the advanced skills idea a lot better...

Same for me, but rather than repeating myself from the OP, all I'll say is that neither fully measured up.


Quote:
I want to maintain the paradigm of control, sense, and alter rolls, so I like the idea of stacking the power's dice with those Force skills.

This version would still do that. I copied that aspect of Advanced Skills, but I wanted to make sure to do it in a way that didn't stack a daisy-chain of dice from the Prerequisite Powers on top of each other. Simply saying that the redefined Power stacked with the base Skill only bypassed that aspect of Advanced Skills.

Quote:
Force powers could not only have prerequisite powers, but also certain minimum values in those powers. But of course that would involve updating each power to implement.

They could, indeed. That might be worth implementing in future versions if the CP slope for Force Users still isn't steep enough.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I can understand your choice here.
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I want to maintain the paradigm of control, sense, and alter rolls, so I like the idea of stacking the power's dice with those Force skills.

This version would still do that.

I know, and I like that about it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
...stacking the power's dice with those Force skills.

I copied that aspect of Advanced Skills, but I wanted to make sure to do it in a way that didn't stack a daisy-chain of dice from the Prerequisite Powers on top of each other. Simply saying that the redefined Power stacked with the base Skill only bypassed that aspect of Advanced Skills.

Well, that's only if you dogmatically adhere to RAW's rules for advanced skills. I don't. In my version of advanced skills, prerequisite skill use doesn't automatically get the benefit of advanced skills.

On R&E p.29, Bill Smith wrote:
When a character uses a prerequisite skill, add the advanced skill to the prerequisite skill's roll.
Whill wrote:
When a character uses a prerequisite skill, the GM may allow you to add the advanced skill to the prerequisite skill's roll if the expertise of the advanced skill is applicable to the non-advanced action the character is attempting.

Some simply additions to an absolute RAW sentence make it subjective to GM discretion, and poof – dogma averted. Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
...character creation, characters get 1 Force Power per D in a Force skill (including Attributes) at creation. For example, a character with 3D Force who puts 2D of their starting Skill Dice in each of the Force Skills (for a total of 5D in Control, Sense and Alter) begins with 15 Force Powers.
...
Thoughts?

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
If you have the Force attribute you have all three skills, and if you don't then you have none? The whole reason I made alter an advanced skill is so it would not default, since it is easy to imagine characters who are Force-sensitive without having alter.

I solved this by having the new rules for Powers take precedence over the rules for Attributes and Skills, so that the Force Attribute only applies to the character's Talent Powers or to Moments of Insight (which require spending a FP). I suppose they could learn powers with just the Attribute as a base, but there's only so much they can do before they have to start improving the skills themselves. My personal preference would be to have them learn the skills , even if just to +1 above Attribute, before they start learning Powers. Of course, most Force-user PCs will be past that point at the start of gameplay.

Whether alter is improved above the Force attribute or not you still have alter if it defaults. In your OP, you say having skills in character creation automatically gives you powers. So doesn't that mean that if you don't allocate dice to alter, you still get some powers? Or do you mean that they get no powers for an unimproved Force skill, but if the player improves a skill then they get a number of powers based on their total skill value (so then the attribute dice count towards the total)?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In your OP, you say having skills in character creation automatically gives you powers. So doesn't that mean that if you don't allocate dice to alter, you still get some powers? Or do you mean that they get no powers for an unimproved Force skill, but if the player improves a skill then they get a number of powers based on their total skill value (so then the attribute dice count towards the total)?

Good question; I hadn't considered that point. My first thought would be the latter, so if the character didn't bother to improve one of the three Force skills at character creation, they wouldn't get access to the starting Powers that would derive from the base value of that skill. So, if a character started with a Force of 3D and put 2D Skill Dice each into Control, Sense and Alter, they'd get 15 starting Powers; however, a character who started with a Force of 2D and only put 2D Skill Dice into Control and Sense, they'd only get 8 starting Powers.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
In your OP, you say having skills in character creation automatically gives you powers. So doesn't that mean that if you don't allocate dice to alter, you still get some powers? Or do you mean that they get no powers for an unimproved Force skill, but if the player improves a skill then they get a number of powers based on their total skill value (so then the attribute dice count towards the total)?

Good question; I hadn't considered that point. My first thought would be the latter, so if the character didn't bother to improve one of the three Force skills at character creation, they wouldn't get access to the starting Powers that would derive from the base value of that skill. So, if a character started with a Force of 3D and put 2D Skill Dice each into Control, Sense and Alter, they'd get 15 starting Powers; however, a character who started with a Force of 2D and only put 2D Skill Dice into Control and Sense, they'd only get 8 starting Powers.

The latter would make more sense if you want your system to represent Force-sensitive characters who don't have access to alter powers, like some Jedi washouts. The Force attribute automatically gives them all three Force skills, but if alter is not improved above attribute, then they do not have any alter powers.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I need to do a combined rule post that integrates the Force Attribute House Rule with this, so all the necessary info is in the same place.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Adding Dice Values to Force Powers Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The latter would make more sense if you want your system to represent Force-sensitive characters who don't have access to alter powers, like some Jedi washouts. The Force attribute automatically gives them all three Force skills, but if alter is not improved above attribute, then they do not have any alter powers.

In lieu of a compilation post, I added the following text to Item #3 of the OP:
    However, a character can not select a Power if they do not improve the Power's Force Skill at least 1 pip above their Force Attribute. For example, if a character has a Force Attribute of 2D, but only places 1D in their Sense Skill (and none in Control or Alter), they may not select any Control or Alter based Powers. This also affects the number of Powers the character start with, as the Attribute dice only count toward starting Force Powers if the character improves the requisite Skill. Using the above example, because the character only has 4D in Sense (Force 3D + 1D Skill Dice), they may only select four starting Powers, and only from the Sense list. However, if the character improved their Control and Alter skills - even if just by a single pip - they would be able to select six additional powers (3 each for Control and Alter, on account of having 3D+1 in both).
I will probably still do a combined post with the Force Attribute so as to have a single reference.
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