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Whill
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | That makes sense, but too bad there isn't a good synonym of vehicle that starts with a T to keep the same acronym. |
Indeed. I mulled it over for a while, and ultimately decided that, as 'tee' and 'vee' were phonetically similar enough, it was the best I was going to get.
One other change I made was to give it 75% Cover in the Front Arc on account of the open view ports.
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | That makes sense, but too bad there isn't a good synonym of vehicle that starts with a T to keep the same acronym. |
Indeed. I mulled it over for a while, and ultimately decided that, as 'tee' and 'vee' were phonetically similar enough, it was the best I was going to get. |
True.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | One other change I made was to give it 75% Cover in the Front Arc on account of the open view ports. |
I would think it would be a simple variation (not warranting a separate model) for the view ports to be closed transparisteel and thus provide full cover for the crew. Maybe they didn't need them on Endor because it was temperate but it would get a little stuffy in the cockpit without the breeze. Also, overconfidence may have been their weakness so they may have not have worried about any native threats. It is a common Imperial MO after all.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Quote: | | One other change I made was to give it 75% Cover in the Front Arc on account of the open view ports. |
I would think it would be a simple variation (not warranting a separate model) for the view ports to be closed transparisteel and thus provide full cover for the crew. Maybe they didn't need them on Endor because it was temperate but it would get a little stuffy in the cockpit without the breeze. Also, overconfidence may have been their weakness so they may have not have worried about any native threats. It is a common Imperial MO after all. |
You argument makes sense, but it's ultimately the easiest way to make a rule for the open viewports, which in turn justifies the need for armored view slits in later models like the AT-SV/a. Plus it adds a nice little twist for PCs encountering an AT-SV with only personal weapons; they have the option of trying to snipe the crew (Character-Scale) at -4D, rather than finding a way to brute force the -SV's armor or trip it somehow (which is kinda overdone).
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | You argument makes sense, but it's ultimately the easiest way to make a rule for the open viewports, which in turn justifies the need for armored view slits in later models like the AT-SV/a. Plus it adds a nice little twist for PCs encountering an AT-SV with only personal weapons; they have the option of trying to snipe the crew (Character-Scale) at -4D |
I wasn't stating instead of, but rather in addition too. You would still need a rule for the open viewport. But actually, it looks like the open viewports have hatches that can be closed, so if closed the crew must be able to operate with sensor/camera visual display. The sensor/visual displays would likely be on the inside of the hatches and activate when closed. That probably makes more sense with the existing design than a variant with closed transparisteel viewports, so I withdraw that idea in favor of this new one.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...rather than finding a way to brute force the -SV's armor or trip it somehow (which is kinda overdone). |
Walkers don't really make a lot of practical sense as they would all be somewhat vulnerable to being tripped, or even tripping themselves while maneuvering. Walker vehicles mainly exist in Star Wars because they look cool, and they are relatively not done (well) too much in sci-fi, so there is some level of setting distinctiveness that they give Star Wars. So it is best not to pick at that nit too much and apply some handwavism to them.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But actually, it looks like the open viewports have hatches that can be closed, so if closed the crew must be able to operate with sensor/camera visual display. The sensor/visual displays would likely be on the inside of the hatches and activate when closed. That probably makes more sense with the existing design than a variant with closed transparisteel viewports, so I withdraw that idea in favor of this new one. |
It's workable, but IMO, there'd need to be a reason why they'd keep them open when they're chasing Ewoks...
| Quote: | | Walkers don't really make a lot of practical sense as they would all be somewhat vulnerable to being tripped, or even tripping themselves while maneuvering. Walker vehicles mainly exist in Star Wars because they look cool, and they are relatively not done (well) too much in sci-fi, so there is some level of setting distinctiveness that they give Star Wars. So it is best not to pick at that nit too much and apply some handwavism to them. |
I'm playing around with the idea of having them be superior to landspeeders in uneven terrain, on account of my idea of landspeeders using traction fields to "grab" the ground to move.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | But actually, it looks like the open viewports have hatches that can be closed, so if closed the crew must be able to operate with sensor/camera visual display. The sensor/visual displays would likely be on the inside of the hatches and activate when closed. That probably makes more sense with the existing design than a variant with closed transparisteel viewports, so I withdraw that idea in favor of this new one. |
It's workable, but IMO, there'd need to be a reason why they'd keep them open when they're chasing Ewoks... |
What I stated above still applies...
| Whill wrote: | | Maybe they didn't [want] them [closed] on Endor because it was temperate but it would get a little stuffy in the cockpit without the breeze. Also, overconfidence may have been their weakness so they may have not have worried about any native threats. It is a common Imperial MO after all. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 am Post subject: |
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I find it extremely doubtful that the AT-SV wouldn't have at least some form of internal temp control or AC system, to protect the onboard electronics if nothing else.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I find it extremely doubtful that the AT-SV wouldn't have at least some form of internal temp control or AC system, to protect the onboard electronics if nothing else. |
| Whill wrote: | | Also, overconfidence may have been their weakness so they may have not have worried about any native threats. It is a common Imperial MO after all. |
The flaps above the open viewports are the exact shape and size of the open viewports. I doubted that was a coincidence, and I find that your insistence that the hatches don't ever close to be odd, so I did some research.
The chicken walker has an impressive sensor system with a holographic 360-degree view of the combat zone, so pilots do not actually need see in front out of the cockpit directly to operate the vehicle. The purpose of the viewports is actually a psychological/intimidation factor, because opening them gives the walker an appearance of a beast or oversized combat droid with eyes. This fits with the Imperial MO for stormtrooper armor, etc.
Based on that alone, the chicken walker crews on Endor may have felt the intimidation factor would be especially effective to demoralize their primitives enemies. Yes, that left them vulnerable to being sniped, but they may not have been too worried about that threat (overconfidence is their MO, like I said). We never saw them getting snipped with a lucky arrow or spear from a nearby tree, so maybe their confidence was warranted.
However, there is even more evidence than fluff. The chicken walker in TESB (seen at 0:30:21-23 and 0:32:54-56) does not show the hatches protruding from the cockpit. Images of the model used (seen here on the left) clearly show the hatches, and they are closed, which makes perfect sense for the inhospitable cold of Hoth.
Making any vehicle model with viewport hatches that are permanently open makes no design sense. (If you were making a vehicle with permanently open viewports you wouldn't even put hatches there at all.) Therefore, the hatches on the RotJ chicken walker must also be able to close.
So for your rule, you would only have to adjust it as follows:
| Quote: | | Cover: Full (3/4 Front when the viewport hatches are open) |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The flaps above the open viewports are the exact shape and size of the open viewports. I doubted that was a coincidence, and I find that your insistence that the hatches don't ever close to be odd, so I did some research. |
I don't recall saying that they couldn't be closed. My reasoning is more that, for whatever reason, the crews prefer to have them open. I think any psychological effect is incidental to their primary use as a backup in case the holographic system goes out. Even if the design intent is psychological, the crews will be more likely to keep them open for personal, practical reasons (armor crews are practical like that), such as just in case the holographic system goes off-line. Or maybe the sensor pack's LFI's aren't as good at distinguishing one living target from another in an environment like a forest. Or maybe the LFIs work just fine, but because there are stormtroopers on foot, the crews are visually confirming targets before opening fire.
| Quote: | | However, there is even more evidence than fluff. The chicken walker in TESB (seen at 0:30:21-23 and 0:32:54-56) does not show the hatches protruding from the cockpit. Images of the model used (seen here on the left) clearly show the hatches, and they are closed, which makes perfect sense for the inhospitable cold of Hoth. |
I mentioned over on the Fractalsponge topic that Fractal's theory was that this was a separate class, likely an interim model between the RotJ AT-ST and Fractal's own AT-ST/a. There are enough minor differences in the design to justify the distinction. If nothing else, having a sealed cockpit would be vital to crew survival on Hoth.
| Quote: | Making any vehicle model with viewport hatches that are permanently open makes no design sense. (If you were making a vehicle with permanently open viewports you wouldn't even put hatches there at all.) Therefore, the hatches on the RotJ chicken walker must also be able to close.
So for your rule, you would only have to adjust it as follows:
| Quote: | | Cover: Full (3/4 Front when the viewport hatches are open) |
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I agree; I just want a more concrete reason for having the viewports open in combat than "trying to scare the sub-humans."
Incidentally, I did finally think of an alternate for Transport. Fractal's theory is that the RotJ AT-ST was a less capable version of the ESB AT-ST and his own AT-ST/a and AT-AR, and thus relegated mostly to garrison perimeter patrol and infantry support (as seen in RotJ). We also have the precedent from Solo of the All-Terrain Defense Turret (even though I think that particular walker is the stupidest vehicle to come out of the Disney films, or at least tied with the stupid crawler bike from TRoS).
So, All-Terrain Sentry Turret.
I'm thinking the RotJ is the Sentry Turret, the ESB is the slightly upgraded Scout Vehicle, and Fractal's is the Scout Vehicle/Assault
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The big difference between Fractal's projects and the basic AT-ST is that the -ST has unsealed viewports |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I don't recall saying that they couldn't be closed. |
Maybe I am confused. "-ST has unsealed viewports" makes it sound a lot like you are saying they are unsealable. You commented about the rule for 75% cover in the front arc due to the open viewports, and I have been saying they wouldn't always be open so that wouldn't always apply. It seemed to me you were saying they were always open and thus you wouldn't need to clarify in your rule about the the 75% front cover only being applicable when the hatches were open. You also seemed to be saying that they shouldn't ever be closed just so PCs have a chance to snipe them instead of trip them.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I agree; I just want a more concrete reason for having the viewports open in combat than "trying to scare the sub-humans." |
That's the fluff, but I was proceeding more from the fact that the crew wouldn't be too afraid of being sniped on Endor. Regardless, the reason they were open being 'they are permanently open on that model' doesn't work.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My reasoning is more that, for whatever reason, the crews prefer to have them open. I think any psychological effect is incidental to their primary use as a backup in case the holographic system goes out. Even if the design intent is psychological, the crews will be more likely to keep them open for personal, practical reasons (armor crews are practical like that), such as just in case the holographic system goes off-line. Or maybe the sensor pack's LFI's aren't as good at distinguishing one living target from another in an environment like a forest. Or maybe the LFIs work just fine, but because there are stormtroopers on foot, the crews are visually confirming targets before opening fire. |
That all makes sense to me for Endor, but that still doesn't invalidate the fact that those hatches sticking out above the open eyes just happen to be the exact shape and size of the viewport openings, and those hatches have no other purpose, so it must be that they can shut down over the openings. Even if it is a crew preference for them to be open, they can be closed.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The chicken walker in TESB (seen at 0:30:21-23 and 0:32:54-56) does not show the hatches protruding from the cockpit. Images of the model used (seen here on the left) clearly show the hatches, and they are closed, which makes perfect sense for the inhospitable cold of Hoth. |
I mentioned over on the Fractalsponge topic that Fractal's theory was that this was a separate class, likely an interim model between the RotJ AT-ST and Fractal's own AT-ST/a. There are enough minor differences in the design to justify the distinction. If nothing else, having a sealed cockpit would be vital to crew survival on Hoth. |
Looking at the two film chicken walker models side-by-side in the linked image I shared clearly indicates that they are different classes of vehicles. It still doesn't make sense that those viewport-shaped hatches sticking out over the viewports on the RotJ model can't be closed like they are on the TESB model. You gave reasons you accept that opening the viewports would be the crews' preference, but it wasn't below freezing on Endor. It makes the most sense that both film classes have viewports that open and close, regardless of what Fractal's variants have.
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Last edited by Whill on Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Incidentally, I did finally think of an alternate for Transport. Fractal's theory is that the RotJ AT-ST was a less capable version of the ESB AT-ST and his own AT-ST/a and AT-AR, and thus relegated mostly to garrison perimeter patrol and infantry support (as seen in RotJ). We also have the precedent from Solo of the All-Terrain Defense Turret (even though I think that particular walker is the stupidest vehicle to come out of the Disney films, or at least tied with the stupid crawler bike from TRoS).
So, All-Terrain Sentry Turret.
I'm thinking the RotJ is the Sentry Turret, the ESB is the slightly upgraded Scout Vehicle, and Fractal's is the Scout Vehicle/Assault |
That works.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Maybe I am confused. "-ST has unsealed viewports" makes it sound a lot like you are saying they are unsealable. |
Ah. I was trying to say that, while the viewports could be closed, they didn't provide a full atmospheric seal against Type II or higher Atmospheres, or against gas attacks.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I’m thinking the stats for Swoops need a rewrite. The original 1E version described swoops as being effectively small aircraft, able to make it up to 50 kilometers in altitude. In this topic, I reimagined them as souped-up speeder bikes. The Han Solo movie, however, was truer to the original vision, with Enfys Nest’s swoops operating at relatively high altitudes, while their riders wore full-body suits to protect from the elements. Plus, there was mention in 1E of swoop gangs operating as pirates (or pirates utilizing swoops for planetary raids), which makes a lot more sense if the swoops have high-altitude performance capabilities, and nicely explains Enfys Nest’s modus operandi as a “flying biker gang”.
Thoughts?
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